Originally posted by scotty1418
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Best regards,
---Norm
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Fair enough, but I would just say non-French in style rather than German since there's no German badge with a strange hinge system like that. They're something unique - perhaps a fusion of cultures.
Best regards,
---Norm -
here are my Vet-acquired French Km Badges,,,Comment
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U-BoatComment
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E-Boat Type 1Comment
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Bacqueville KM badges: tombac, buntmetall, zinc, hear the ring?
I noticed some comments about what these were made of.
Tombac: 67+% copper the rest zinc and tin.
Buntmetall: Non-ferrous metal with copper, zinc, tin or nickel
Zinc: monkey metal, and such.
How to tell?
Here is a simple way.
Take the medal in question, and hold it lightly in the centre between the index finger and thumb. (Or balance it on the tip of your finger with a carpet beneath should it fall) Take a wood pencil and tap the edge of the medal listening for the sound that results.
If it rings it is tombac or buntmetall.
If the sound is dull without a lasting ring, then it is mostly zinc.
I tested some of my medals today and the zinc ones had a dull report. The tombac, buntmetall ones a distinct ring.
The Bacqueville KM badge has a ring that is not as pronounced as a pure tombac metal but it is not at all like a pure zinc one that has no copper content. A relic seller (quoted here in this thread) stated for his two KM Bacqueville examples that they are buntmetall. And so it seems my Bacqueville example is buntmetall, too.
It is copper that makes the difference between the ring and the dull report of zinc.
You can also clearly hear the difference with copper pennies dropped on the floor. The copper ones have a ring and the zinc ones a dull thud.
Also if you are into coin collecting using a pencil and with the coin in the tip of your finger will separate the dross ones from the precious metal ones.
SteveComment
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Just as a review, here's the table of metals seen in our hobby.
Even without metallurgical testing, I don't think there's any question that the "French-made" badges are indeed made of zinc (apparent on a multitude of postings), and also that the easily recognizable fakes based upon them are made of some type of post-war Buntmetall alloy.
Best regards,
---NormComment
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Norm,Originally posted by Norm F View Post
Show us a Bacquevillle "buntmetall" fake. There are some obvious fakes shown in postings here and they are horrible with regards to details and look like injection casts.. And there is one legit seller listed earlier in this thread (www.weitze.com) that has Bacquevillle badges and he states that they are "buntmetall." Yet others say they are zinc. The tap test on my example has the ring similar to an alloy with a high copper content akin to buntmetall. So the highly detailed die struck "Bacquevillle" KM Cruiser badge that that I have and appears to be made of buntmetall is a fake?
(I got it from a reputable dealer who is a long standing member of this forum)
It is way too detailed to match the obvious fakes that I have seen photos posted.
Show us some bumtmetall fakes?
I think it is easier to make moulds from an original and cast zinc, than to make a die and strike buntmetall.
As for metallurgic testing this can be done with a x-ray or gamma spectrometer. I am working on a DIY unit that might be able to do this type of testing. And such will provide the exact metal composition down to the elemental level. (I am working on this in my study of meteorites)
And it would be very informative it a data base of authentic vs fake examples could be made. But that would be a very involved project that would involve scanning many examples, authentic and fake.
SteveComment
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Hi Steve,
I just checked on Weitze's site. Currently they have 8 listings of so-called "Bacqueville-Paris" KM badges (they just can't seem to shake that designation). Two of them are described as "Buntmetall", five as "Feinzink" and one is not specified. Although a reputable dealer, they are not experts in the "French-made" KM badges and their own descriptions have been inconsistent over the years.
The use of the term "Buntmetall" is ambiguous at best. Some dealers use it to mean any non-ferrous metal including both zinc badges and any type of copper alloy badges, others use it to mean any copper alloy badge, and still others use it synonymously with the term Tombak (i.e. restricted to >85% copper/zinc alloy). For our purposes when describing wartime combat badges, it's best to just use the terms zinc and Tombak which are the only two materials used in KM badges aside from the rare use of aluminum and Cupal, and one can further subdivide zinc into Fine zinc (Feinzink) or pot metal (Kriegsmetall). Fakes, on the other hand, can be made out of any alloy and often have colours intermediate between Tombak and zinc.
Regarding the French-made badges, in the absence of metallurgical testing, no one is going to convince me that the badges in this image (attached) are not made of zinc. And as far as I'm concerned all the "legitimate" French-made badges are made from the same material. I can't comment on your badge at all unless you post images.
As for databases, we have here on WAF the database of originals in the pinned threads accessible to non-Association Members, and a "Fakes Gallery" accessible to Association Members.
Best regards,
---NormComment
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Good points Norm
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there is only one fabrication of "Bacqueville-Paris" KM badges with only one type of metal.
Bertrand MalvauxComment
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Not sure I understand either of the above two posts. Could you state your point in another way or in French?Originally posted by christof View Post
JohnComment
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If the 'French' KM badges are manufactured in zinc or 'buntmetal', then why?
As a collector of French insignia, I'm not aware of any other French insignia that uses those type of materials?
From my 'French-filter' perspective, I just cant see how these would make sense as a wartime French manufacture in comparison to any other period production pieces.
German attachment hinge system - when no other French badges use this?
German style metals base - when French badges were generally manufactured otherwise?
Even the stamping style of the manufacture is one not typically seen in other French all-metal manufactured pieces.
Markings - the French manufacturers were typically very good about marking their pieces in some way. Here there are none(?)
Best
Scott
French-Insignia.com------------------------------------------------
Collector of French ww2-era insignia.Comment
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Hi Scott,
Yes, that's basically restating your point from post #139 and #150.
These badges (at least the "original" versions of them) are only in zinc, not Buntmetall. But you raise a good point if there is no precedent for any French-made awards of any kind using zinc. Knowing nothing about the French industry I'll take your word for that.
However the pin system is unique and is not seen on any German-made awards either, so not looking French doesn't make it German.
As to markings, why would any French manufacturer in occupied France who made a swastika-bearing award put their name on it? Sounds like asking for trouble down the line. French-attributed TR insignia typically don't bear maker marks as well, and again these by their nature parody German manufacture rather than appearing "distinctly French".
If they had been been manufactured in Germany post-war then I would have expected them to appear in German collections but instead they appeared (anecdotally) only in French and American collections to begin with.
So really, I don't think we're any further ahead on this line of thinking, one way or the other.
Best regards,
---NormComment
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