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    #31
    Originally posted by Frank H
    Wouldn´t it be acceptable to assume that Mayer "lend" out Zimmermann´s badge for the TOMBAK badges, but used another design on their zink badges? These are after all two Pforzheim based makers.

    It is a shame that we do not have another TOMBAK Mayer U-Boat badge among us to see beyond Erik´s most interesting badge. In my opinion a very desirable badge. I just love original but not mainstream badges!

    Cheers, Frank
    Possible I suppose but I'd think it more likely a simple exchange of pin fittings to meet a shortage. I've seen this before on a wound badge, totally unmessed with , with one makers mark on the badge and another different maker on the pin (both in the same city). No disputing the pin seems to be a correct L/18 style pin, I just can't accept that this is an L/18 badge.

    I don't see why Mayer would borrow the Zimmermann die, or buy Zimmermann blanks for a Tombak badge when the had thier own dies. Their badge is die struck, not cast so the tooling would be the same. Meybauer early tombak - late zinc badges clearly have the same characteristics, so do Schwerin. I just don't buy such a total absolute difference in style for the zinc and tombak badges from the same firm.
    Its like finding a perfect Wächtler & Lange EK1 with all the correct characteristics, but with a Steinhauer marked pin - an unexplained anomaly

    Comment

      #32
      Another unmarked Zimmermann

      Tim (Loggy),

      I have a badge very similar to yours and Michel's and feel that mine is also an unmarked Zimmermann.

      Perhaps Frank is correct when he states the difference here is in the pin color. On ours, the pin is clearly a bright silver, where the marked L/18 is on a brass (gold) pin. The designs are seemingly identical other than that. Nice badge BTW!
      Tim
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #33
        Reverse

        .
        Attached Files

        Comment

          #34
          Great Eagle details!

          This is one of the nicer buntmetal U-boat badges (next to Schwerin) made IMO.
          Tim
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #35
            Atached is a photo (credit to Detlev) I purchased the badge from Detlev last year. Notice how the talons of the eagle come down over the tip of the swastica and there is a "beard" to the eagle. I apologize for the quality of the picture. I am relatively new to this. However, I have been through several books and many pics posted here and am still trying to identify who the maker might be. It is an absolutely beautiful and well detailed badge.
            Last edited by Terrence; 01-17-2004, 08:57 PM.

            Comment

              #36
              Originally posted by Terrence
              Atached is a photo (credit to Detlev) I purchased the badge from Detlev last year. Notice how the talons of the eagle come down over the tip of the swastica and there is a "beard" to the eagle. I apologize for the quality of the picture. I am relatively new to this. However, I have been through several books and many pics posted here and am still trying to identify who the maker might be. It is an absolutely beautiful and well detailed badge.
              Its a bit difficult to tell from the way in which the photo has been taken at an angle rather than straight on, but it looks like the later Zink version of this Tombak one. So far I haven't been able to identify the maker but have found what I believe to be an illustration of this type in an original wartime publication.

              If we are talking about the same badge here, yes I'd certainly agree its one of the best of the U-Boat Badge designs.
              Last edited by Gordon Williamson; 08-30-2008, 11:57 PM.

              Comment

                #37
                Dear Gordon,

                I should have stated that mine is tombac. (No, it is indeed zinc) There was a change in color appearance when I processed it through photoshop. The picture you posted is identical. I was surprised that the swastica was not cut out as its depth and crisp in detail. The conning tower, periscope, flag, and the deck gun are all nicely detailed. So, who is the mystery maker of this fabulous badge? Is the picture you posted of one you own?

                T
                Last edited by Terrence; 02-01-2005, 08:44 PM.

                Comment

                  #38
                  Dear Terrence,

                  Your badge has a hinge and a catch plate, it cannot possible be Tombak? It also looks like zinc.
                  As far as maker is concerned, Gordon said this in his reply to you:

                  So far I haven't been able to identify the maker
                  Cheers, Frank

                  Comment

                    #39
                    ..
                    Last edited by Terrence; 02-01-2005, 08:45 PM.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Terrence,

                      I am not speaking about the colour of the catch and hinge but the fact that both have little plates (the hinge a rectangular one, the catch obviously a round one) resting under the actual hinge and catch. An obvious sign of a zinc badge.

                      I have seen two badges of that unknown maker made of Tombak in this forum so far, Gordon´s and Michel´s. They both have hinge and catch directly soldered to the body of the badge, which is typical for a Tombak badge.
                      I remember you badge when it was offered on Detlev´s site and never thought it was anything but zinc.
                      Cheers, Frank

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Thank you for your comments Frank. It does indeed have a small rectangular hinge. The catch plare is also round. I cannot explain that the weight and appearance are inconsistent with that of zinc. Before reattaching the hinge plate to the back, I scratched into the surface and it the filings are very gold in color. Not silver at zinc would be. Would this maker have tried to maintain its quality and continued to produce tombak later into the war?

                        T

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Dear Terrence,

                          Well, I cannot force you to believe what I say. For me this badge is a zinc one. There is no sense and precedence in producing a Tombak badge with hinge and catch plates, because the little plates are just not needed. And even if something you did changed the colours of your picture a little as you say, it is still obvious that it is zinc even from that picture.

                          Cheers, Frank
                          Cheers, Frank

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Terrence
                            Frank, do tell me more. The badge is definately not zinc. I have two doctoral degrees in the sciences and I know zinc....
                            Hi Terrance,

                            This badge is made from a zinc alloy, sometime known as kriegsmetal or feinzinc. It certainly isn't tombac, or any other type of buntmetal, like brass or a nickel alloy. Look at where the hinge was broken off the badge, this clearly shows the base metal as silvery colored alloy..not brass.

                            When using the term "zinc" in relation to badge manufacture, we aren't referring to the pure form of Zinc (Zn), but rather a myriad of alloy mixtures, sometimes containing silver, copper, etc. Some of these alloys are very impure, resulting in rapid finish loss. Of course, the hardware on the reverse of the badge was made from better quality metals, this is why you see the hardware still retaining the finish, when the badge finish has deteriated.

                            Because of the impure properties of zinc alloys, it was necessary to use small attaching plates on the hardware to provide enough of a mounting surface to solder the hardware on badge.

                            This is how we know your sub badge is made from zinc, not because of the color of the badge in your images.


                            I am curious though, how did you manage to reattach the pin and hinge?

                            Accidentally offending people on the internet since 1997

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Ok, I am only presenting objective observations. Yes, the color of the solder under where the plate attached is the same color as zinc. But, this is what appears to be the soldering material. Underneath the solder, is the gold colored alloy. I took the badge down to the militaria show here in Chicago today. There was complete agreement that the badge was not zinc. I was also told that there was no guilding on the badge (at least now there is not). It is already base metal and the sub has what appears to be what be a polished brass surface. So, I am open to explanations. While it came from Detlev, I suppose for that matter it could still be a repro. I do want to thank you all for your input. In addition to the mystery of the maker, It looks like we have added to the mystery. I will see about getting better pics to post if the experts here think it will add to the data base here at the site. Again, I really thank you all for your input and wonderous expertise.

                              Best regards,
                              Terrence

                              Comment

                                #45
                                I would have to say the badge posted by Terrence, though undoubtedly genuine, is almost certainly NOT Tombak which is a bronze based alloy, never appearing silver under any circumstance. Fittings were not soldered to Tombak badges, but brazed a process requiring a much higher degree of heat which would have melted most zinc or base-metal alloy badges, As Frank has already pointed out fittings for base-metal alloy badges usually (though not always) were first attached to a small rectagular or round baseplate which helped the solder produce a more robust attachment to the zink or base-metal alloy of the body of the badge.

                                Comment

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