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    #16
    Hi again!!!

    I did not mean the known originals of a shuco. I meant the shuco badges with the round " S " in the mm. There is a tale out in collectors circles. So, after a heaving bombing night the factory lost some parts. So they made new tools to produce new destroyer badges. With a new mm and new hardware on the reverse. Only a tale???? Who knows.............

    Regards

    Geyuserrectus

    Comment

      #17
      Originally posted by Geyuserrectus View Post
      Hi again!!!

      I did not mean the known originals of a shuco. I meant the shuco badges with the round " S " in the mm. There is a tale out in collectors circles. So, after a heaving bombing night the factory lost some parts. So they made new tools to produce new destroyer badges. With a new mm and new hardware on the reverse. Only a tale???? Who knows.............

      Regards

      Geyuserrectus
      Hello,

      I would say then, only a tale IMO. A tale started in the hopes of legitimizing a new type of fake. I can accept the possibility that original dies were damaged and needed repair or replacement. I would even be willing to accept the possibility of a rounded 'S' on an original badge. I think for instance of say a Souval Panzer Badge or U-boat Badge: originals of which can be found both with a rounded 'S' and an angular 'S'. It is not inconceivable then, of having two slightly different reverse dies that were interchangeable with the obverse die. There is nothing complex about a reverse die for a badge such as this. The positioning of the maker mark on the reverse is not a concern for me either. That marking can be shifted about (right, left, up or down) as it is dependent upon the initial tooling setup for the production run.

      What does this badge in for me, is the attachment hardware. I have never seen an original SHuCo with brass hardware like this. All the originals I have seen had steel hinges, catches, catchplates, and pins (although some did have non-magnetic pins, but not brass). The only thing that brass or tombak was used for was the top hooks (but again not always). If this was a second type of ShuCo Destroyer Badge, it certainly would not use brass hardware if the first ones did not. Did this vital war material, that was so strictly-controlled, suddenly become so abundant in a collapsing empire that SHuCo could now afford to use it for all attachment components? That does not seem to make sense. But brass is a nice, soft, easy to work with, easy to solder type metal that the fakers like to use. Also, these particular components strike me as very crude. Not just the soldering job, but the components themselves. They do not have the look of small mass-produced components made by machines, but of crude homemade parts.

      Best regards,
      Tom

      PS: It might be helpful too, if you could post the measurements and weight of the badge.
      Mihi libertas necessest!

      Comment

        #18
        It looks like on the shot showing "Catch" c-hook looks like a seam?

        Regards,
        JustinG

        Comment

          #19
          Here's the area I have doubts and stuck out for me.
          Regards,
          JustinG
          Attached Files

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            #20
            Wow, Tom.

            That was a very good and detailed explanation, no kidding. Thank you very much.

            Sometimes I hate this hobby, it´s easier to play golf or so. The reason that I don´t give up are, the members in this forum.

            Again thanks to Tom and the other members.

            Many regards

            Geyus

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              #21
              I have seen this odd flaw on definite original zinc badges and I can not explain why it is there save to say that it is part of the production process, I however am not keen on the badge that started this thread.

              Best,

              J

              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by John T View Post
                I have seen this odd flaw on definite original zinc badges and I can not explain why it is there save to say that it is part of the production process, I however am not keen on the badge that started this thread.

                Best,

                J
                I think this can occur due to impurities of an alloy, but is mostly the result of uneven heating/cooling of metal in an elastic state (as in die-forging) or a molten state (as in casting).

                To see it to this degree, though, (yellow arrows) I would almost be willing to bet that this badge was cast. A serious flaw like this indicates that a mold was partially filled with molten metal and then was allowed to cool a bit. Then additional molten metal was poured to completely fill the mold. In casting, this is called a cold lap. As a result, the two streams failed to fuse completely together. It is the only explanation I can see for a flaw of this degree.

                Also, there is a heavy amount of hand filing to this badge (shown by the blue arrow). Probably an effort to remove more flaws of a bad casting.

                Best regards,
                Tom
                Attached Files
                Mihi libertas necessest!

                Comment

                  #23
                  Hello,

                  you badge is the fake of the second version of the shuco-badge.
                  The second version of the shuco-destroyer is also original like the first version.
                  By the second version was the used front-stamp of the first version. But the Backside was produced with a new stamp.

                  Here any pictures by the microscope with 60 x zoom.
                  First picture a unweared new Badge in packet from the big found in Frankfurt shows the swastika of the first version. The second picture shows the same detail, by a weared an badge of the second version, the stamp was the same. Look at the conturs and Details......so small details cannot be faked.

                  More informations in my Book about the Warbadges of the Kriegsmarine.....
                  Attached Files

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                    #24
                    Wow, I can tell that book is going to be a great one there Sascha. Can't wait to see what other things you have found with other maker marks and trade secrets from 70 years ago for these various badge manufacturers.
                    Thanks for the explanation! Always learning something.
                    Regards,
                    JustinG

                    Comment

                      #25
                      @Justin

                      a little bit you must wait;-)

                      And additionly i have found a second variant of the first version....finally it exists two variants of the first version, and one variant of the second version. More will i not say, at this time...

                      Comment

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