Cupal minuature hilfskreuzer on E-stand

[Peter J.]

Andy, considering the slow response and the fact that silence is a sign of acceptance, I suppose you, Larry and I are the only non-believers .

Thomas, I don't know the exact tasks of the LDO, other than the ones referred to in several reference publications i.g. quality and design. The list in Dietrich's book (p.48) "orders and medals, miniatures and ribbons" clearly indicates that the minis were subjected to the same control as the full size decorations. Once again, this might be a fully legit piece, but the multitude of anomalies makes it questionable. Here's a comparison shot with an original 16mm in zinc. Would you buy it, had it been in full size?

cheers
Peter

[Thomas Bendixen]

Hi Peter

Even though I'm the seller there should be no doubt that I, as all other serious collectors, would be happy if we can rule a fake out. I have recently participated in a debate like this with reversed roles. I think that the trouble with this hobby is that we don't have a 360 degres methodical solid base to rule out a badge. Ruling a badge out because its nonregulation height, different than the bigger badge, LDO would have banned it, and that the needle should have been without a catchplate is in this case not a view that I can share.

I think that the badge in question is an early badge and as souch LDO control might not be so rigid as later on. Furthermore theres a badge like it with provenace from a crewmember. The use of cupal + the finnish on this badge is execptionally good and suggests to me that if the faker have this knowlegde he sure can copy one of the other badges shown in this thread - why should he put so much energy in these low detail badges to make a completely new die when he could have taken a more conventional badge and simply cast a new one - the shrinking difference wouldn't be recognizeable in souch a small badge. Then take a cheap gold lacquer and paint. That would have been much easier, and if he master these techniques I think he would have used them on something else more profitable - and we would all be in trouble - perhaps we allready are Well if the badge is fake wouldn't we se it all over?

Cheers Thomas

[Andy B.]

Hi Thomas,
I appreciate your arguement on the mini. However, some of the points you make I have to disagree with.
The fact that a badge is ruled out by nonregulation (height, width, weight) I think is a very valid arguement. The one thing in this hobby we are told from the beginning is that the Germans are very detailed and precise on their awards. I doubt it only applies to full size badges, EKs, medals, etc. I see beautiful detail on the smallest of pins (and minis). Look at a 9mm LW flak for example. If we start to accept "nonregulation" pieces, then where does it end (or begin for that matter).
To state that its an early piece does not strike a cord either. Usually (yes I know I'm generalizing) early pieces are the nicest examples. I would venture to say the makers have time, materials and pride in the pieces they produce.
As for the one with provenance. We still haven't heard back from Martin on that one. I hope he checks back on this and lets us know. But provenance also only goes so far. I have a clock taken off of a U-boat by my fathers Uncle in Norway. Now, I know its the truth, but when it comes time to sell it (no, I'm not going too ) who is going to believe me?
You also mention why would a faker take the time and effort to form a new mold to produce a fake badge. My arguement is this....thats what they do. They don't care if it looks like an original, all they want is to make money from the unwary.
Lastly, if the badge were a fake, wouldn't we see it all over. Well, if the badge you show is fake, then there are at least two (with the one Martin showed). I would bet there are more.
Peter is an excellent source of information on minis, and I bend his ear quite often. We have disagreed on pieces, but most of the time we agree. I have only been collecting mini badges since the '80s. Not long at all in relation to most of the members. But, the one thing I have noticed with minis (that I trust) is detail and that they match up with their bigger brothers.
I guess it boils down to a quote I learned when I first joined the forum....If you like the piece, that what matters most.

Sincerely Andy B.

[Martin W]

Hi Guys,

the reason i have not responded,is that i was waiting for a second reply from the owner of the pin illustrated in post #7, regarding measurements.
He did respond to my first e-mail and told me that the pin was a direct gift from a surviving crewmmember of the Hilfskreuzer"Komet".
I will post the measurements as soon as i get them.

Regards,Martin.

[Peter J.]

Thomas, I know you're a stand-up guy and I also appreciate you taking the time to discuss these matters. You too Andy and thanks for your kind words, but I merely collect these tiny beaties

If this mini could be 100% verified by a recipient (not a veteran purchase), this discussion would be redundant. However, without that confirmation we still need to decide what criterias should be applied, in order to reach consensus. Let's start with the LDO.

Suggestions have been brought forward that the presence of some of the non-standard types of minis (as well as normal size) could be explained by the lack of control by the LDO or that they were jeweller-made. The Präsidialkanzlei officially reminded manufacturers in Juli 1940 (Dietrich p.46) that disregard of the rules (for example, manufacturing without having previously submitted an example of the product for approval) could result in revocation of the general permission given in 1935. I find it hard to believe this awkward design would get approval. We all know that producers occasionally failed to comply with the regulations i.g. to LDO-mark all the retail products, but it's evedent that the PK closely monitored the production as early as 1940. At the time of the introduction of the Hilfskreuzer (Apr.24, 1941), the LDO was already at work and the manufacturers were very much aware of their authority. Jeweller-made, anyone care to explain this concept

"Well if the badge is fake wouldn't we se it all over?" This is a popular point of wiew, but it's actually a two-edged sword i.e. if this is an original, shouldn't there be more around? In my own experience, I've never seen any 19mm minis, but suddenly two different (Flotten and Marineart.) appeared about two years ago on the market. Bottom line, one unique MA and two rare HC's in 19mm, maybe so but at least questionable.

Thomas, you've had the benefit of handling this mini, where as I can only relate to the images. Perhaps it's the lighting, the side-shot indicates silver, is that correct? Also, how did you determine this mini is made in Cupal?

Now in anticipation of Martin's response, will I be totally humiliated? Either way, I find this discussion immensly interesting and for me this is not a game of "win-or-lose"

cheers
Peter

[Thomas Bendixen]

Hi Peter

Seen from the side its aluminiun and on the worn places on the obverse I see deep kobber colour wich together with the light weight to me suggests Cupal.

Andy + Peter: can you show some early buntmetall stickpins?

Cheers Thomas

[Peter J.]

Thomas, only you know the weight and I'm not qualified to distinguise aluminium from silver paint. But if what you say is correct, the work process seems complicated i.e. first applying a copper coating over the aluminium, without covering the edge. Then oxidyzing the reverse and the full obverse and once again exluding the edge (as can be seen on the enclosed image). Finally applying the gold finish in the obverse, but still nothing on the edge. Since the dark portions were intended only for the reverse and the globe, the easiest way would have been to oxidyze the whole badge after the copper had been applied, why leave the edge?

Here are three 16mm minis. The center badge has been silvered all around and the buntmetall is visible on the obverse. The right one is identical in design, but most likely in zinc, this one has been darked all around incl. the edge. I'm not 100% certain, but I assume the Destroyer also in in buntmetall.

cheers
Peter

[Peter J.]

images

[Thomas Bendixen]

Hi Peter

Good question. Would it be far fetched to argue that the cupal plate was darkend and the badges was then stamped out, thereby only having to apply the gold?

Cheers Thomas

[Peter J.]

Now that would be perfectly plausible

cheers
Peter

[Andy B.]

OK guys here is my aux. cruiser stickpin.....(Hey Peter, I finally got the scanner)

@ Thomas, I will check my pieces and get back with you on the buntmetal. I just started with the scanner, so my nights will be full for a little while. .

I hope more folks post some of their mini aux. cruisers.

Sincerely Andy B.

[Andy B.]

and the reverse......