Unfinished AS Minesweepers

[Thomas Durante]

Very good information Pavel and I commend your research.

But we have some pretty good confirmation that "AS in triangle" is NOT Adolf Scholze. Skip actually called Adolf Scholze and they confirmed that they used the A.S. logo on their wartime badges and that they did not use the "AS in triangle".

Did any of the paperwork you found have a logo on it anywhere?

Thanks

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi all,

... In archive I managed to find few pages of Adolf Scholze accounting boks. This lists were from years 1943-1944. This lists cointained the suppliers and customers of AS company. There are only names of the companies and amounts of Reichs Marks, and I found really interiesting things here. Both Schwerin Berlin and R. Wächtler were customers of Adolf Scholze! In the Period from 12.4.-1.12. 1944 R. Wächtler bought from Scholze items in value of more than 66 000 Reichs Mark. Schwerin Berlin bought in period 21.11. -30.12 1944 items in value of 19 500 Reichs Mark. I think this details can proove following:
1. Adolf Scholze was producer of the group of unfinished badges that I found
2. Adolf Scholze was using the AS in triangle mark
3. Adolf Scholze manufactured badges for other companies in Germany
4. Adolf Scholze was producers of U-bot clasps for Schwerin Berlin ( in the last years of War)
5. Adolf Scholze was producer of wound badges marked 101 for R. Wächtler company ( and maybe other unmarked badges)
Now this is open field for your discussion..... What do you think?
...

Hi Pavel,

Very interesting! Thanks for the update. (I think you meant "100" marked wound badge, not "101".) That's a very important document you describe. Could you possibly post a scan of this document?

Best regards,
---Norm

I still don't see the connection between AS Triangle and A. Scholze.

Hi Don,

If I'm not mistaken (and perhaps Pavel can confirm) the implication is there since Pavel found the "AS in triangle" minesweepers with the Schwerin clasp and W&L wound badge, both of whom were listed as customers of Adolf Scholze in the document. That's why I think the document is key to this discussion.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Norm F]

...
But we have some pretty good confirmation that "AS in triangle" is NOT Adolf Scholze. Skip actually called Adolf Scholze and they confirmed that they used the A.S. logo on their wartime badges and that they did not use the "AS in triangle".
...

Hi Tom,

I've always wondered about that information. While it was great that Skip got that information from Herr Gottstein and his son back in 2005, he made it quite clear that Herr Gottstein had joined the Adolf Scholze company in its Neugablonz, Bayern location only in 1965, and in fact never had anything to do with the original Gablonz factory. You have to wonder how complete is the information from a retiree in 2005 about a logo that was used 20 years before he joined the company in 1965?

However, it never made sense to me that there were two distinct lines of PABs, one marked A.S. and one marked "A.S. in triangle" -- if these were both Scholze why would there be two different designs. And yet the distinctive hardware matches... Another thought that potentially could link A.S. and "A.S. in triangle", since it now appears that Scholze was a major industrialist in Gablonz at that time with large orders from other companies, is if they had subcontracted to a second site with it's own tooling and marked differently? Pure speculation of course.

I'd still like to see Pavel's document and confirm with him that the "AS in triangle" minesweepers and the wound badge and combat clasp were found together.

Best regards,
---Norm

[pavels_2005]

Hi all,

yes there is a mistake, of course I ment the wound badges marked with 100..

Why I think the AS in triangle is Scholze?
1. I found all this badges at one place, which is not far from the place where Scholze company was located during the War
2. most of the badges are marked with AS in triangle, which could show that this is the mark of their producer....
3. In Scholzes accountant book I found that he produced items ( badges??) for Schwerin Berlin and Wächtler, this is explaining the marks on Uboat and wound badges.

I know this is just possibility but there are too much indications.... Unfortunately in the papers is no logo presented to make the 100% proof.

Best Regards

Pavel

[pavels_2005]

Here is one sample page from Scholze accountance book. This page is showing period from 25.10.1944 till 1.12.1944. This is list of debtors from this period. This list is showing that Schwerin Berlin and Wächtler were customers of Scholze and made some business transactions in this period. You can se also other names of Scholzes customers.... From other pages it is possible to see Scholzes suppliers. It is really interesting document...

[Norm F]

Very, very interesting, Pavel. Also, interesting to see the full name of Schwerin's firm "C. Schwerin & Sohn".

Where does it actually mention Adolf Scholze? And are any other significant customers listed on the other pages?

And for completeness, is it okay for you to say where this document was found, since that would add to its claim of authenticity?

Thank you for posting this information.

Best regards,
---Norm

[pavels_2005]

I live in Gablonz and I do research about our local producers from the WW2 period, I visited museums and diferent company archives which is the source for my documents.

[Norm F]

Well, thanks again Pavel.

Here's that title with the contrast adjusted to read it more easily:
Adolf Scholze
Metall- u. Schmuckwaren
Grünwald/Neiße 140
??? 5006

By the way, do any of the other pages happen to list Karl Wurster, Markneukirchen as a customer of Scholze?

Best regards,
---Norm

[pavels_2005]

I have only pages from 1943 and 1944 available, but Karl Wurster, Markneukirchen is not mentioned there.......

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

If you thought my theories on S&L pin marks and FLL badges was something, wait till you hear this one

Some of you guys may remember this thread from GCA back in March where we were discussing the same topic - AS in Triangle and Adolf Scholze:

http://www.germancombatawards.com/th...as+in+triangle

Anyway, I mentioned that I had always had a little theory with the "AS in Triangle" badges, but never any shred of proof and never really figured out the puzzle. But with Pavel's find, I think it might start to make a whole lot more sense.

I have always thought it very odd that "AS in Triangle" would have 3 dots around it. Don't you guys think that is a weird thing to add to a maker mark just arbitrarily? My thought was that the 3 points might signify 3 companies that worked closely together. Furthermore, the 3 points MIGHT line up on a map in the form of a triangle.

Initially, I though this might be for 3 companies in the Gablonz area that worked together, but with Pavel's discovery that Adolf Scholze worked closely with Schwerin (in Berlin) and Wachter & Lange (Mittwaida), its quite possible that the 3 dots signify the 3 companies. I can see a scenario where Adolf Scholze teamed up with Schwerin and W&L to form a small, separate entity to make badges and go after contracts from the government together. The maker mark for this new entity was "AS in Triangle" and Adolf Scholze used the same die cutter to design a similar, but different PAB design from their own PABs. Teaming up with Schwerin could have been done due to their contacts in Berlin.

So I plotted these 3 companies on the map, and see what we find....

This scenario happens in private business all the time to go after bigger and more lucrative jobs that they couldn't get on their own by themselves.

Tom

p.s., fire away, I am running out of the room after I hit "submit"

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

Aren't you violating Dan Brown's non-disclosure agreement for the third book in the Da Vinci code trilogy?

Not bad, though.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Marc Garlasco]

Area 51...

[Thomas Durante]

Actually looks more like the Bermuda triangle!

Ok, after the initial insanity reaction, sit and think about the maker marke. Don't you guys find it REALLY strange that anyone would put 3 dots in their maker mark? Seems so arbitrary to surround your initials with 3 dots, I really think there is something signficant about them.

I like Norm's idea about re-visiting with Adolf Scholze and pressing them about the "AS in Triangle" mark. How about Schwerin or Wachter & Lange, are they still around? Someone could go and contact them about the AS mark, since they are now pretty firms connected thanks to Pavel's find.

Tom

[John R.]

Lets start again with what we do know:

1. The mark is AS (in a triangle)

2. Beautiful and prolific badges certainly not gone unnoticed by Prasidialkanzlei des Fuhrers.

3. Therefore, based on 2 above, this maker was an authorized dealer in these awards and has an official number.

4. Those numbers go from 1 to 142 and it is highly unlikely that Hans Gnad put AS on his badges. Admittedly, some of those numbers are unknown as to maker. Not many though.

5. The possible initial combinations could be the first and last of AS or SA. Or, it could be the last initial of SA and Sohn.

6. That leaves us with:

No. 27 Anton Schenkl
No. 35 FW Assmann und Sohne
No. 95 Adolf Scholze
No. 142 AD Schwerdt

To me, it has to be one of these makers and go from there. I do not think the triangle or the three dots mean a thing but an artist's work.

John

[Thomas Durante]

Hi John,

Unfortunately, we have been down that same road before and none of those names match at all based on the characteristics of the badge (other than Adolf Scholze). The "AS in Triangle" badges match construction techniques, quality of finish and reverse hardware construction to badges in the Gablonz area, so that is what always brings us back to Gablonz and eliminates all the makers you mention:

1. Anton Schenkl - Located in Vienna
2. Assmann - Ludenscheid, but also made their own PABs, IABs & Minesweeper badges.
3. Adolf Scholze - Gablonz and still the best candidate we have
4. AD Schwerdt - Stuttgart.

Tom