U-boat silver clasp

[tomlaan]

Hi Guys!
Need to discuss this clasp as even the reduction of 100.- Eur doesnt sell it. It just doesnt fit into my collection and I think the price is quite fair. Here is the link: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=318107

[Mike Kenny]

Apart from the weak maker mark on the left hand side and the de-naz "damage", I don't really see a problem with the clasp. Basemetal, hardware and finish all look OK to me. Price is in the eye of the beholder.

Regards
Mike

[John T]

Maybe the price for a denazified piece...I sold this one on my site for about 200 dollars earlier this year...to me an attempt at de-nazification of a badge really hurts the value of a piece...if somebody is going to pay top dollar for an item they will expect a piece that has not been played with:

[paddywhack]

from what iv seen a die-nazified piece no matter how rare is normally worth about half of an undamaged piece if not less! just from what iv seen on the estand and dealer sites over the last couple of years!

[John R.]

Hi Tomlaan,

I do not think you posed your question for us to dance around it. To be honest, and like Mike said this is my opinion but an opinion based on looking at a lot of these silver U-boat clasps, I think your price is too high.

I think a very good example is in the area of 1800-2100 maybe--have not seen too many good example in a long time though but these prices are tacked on to poor examples on dealer websites. You want a thousand less and that seems to be a big discount but not if somebody wants a good example--better to save up the extra 1000 and buy that example you will not regret having for the long run.

I think the badge is original, no question in my mind, but the damage to the swaz really hurts it. If there was provenance, might make a small difference but provenance can be hard to prove.

So I think the fact that it has not sold has to do with the price. Not sure what you paid for it but of course that has something to do with the sale price, but not much. You could have paid too much.

I would lower it every 2 weeks by a hundred dollars down to where you will not sell it. At that point, it stays home and maybe you can try again in 6 months or year. Sometimes it is timing, but in this case, it is timing and price I think.

It just takes the right buyer but apparently that buyer is not looking at estand right now for a badge in this condition.

Bottom line, I agree with JohnT's pricing, maybe a little low but that is where a professional priced it and should be an indication to you of what the market might be.



John

[John R.]

Just checked the clasp for sale that you listed on a dealer's site. I think that price is ridiculous, but hey, it is his business. I put that clasp at no more than 800 dollars.

Check out Deltev's prices, they are no way near 2000 for a poor condition badge. He ran about 6 straight outstanding examples 18 months ago for 1800 USD each.

John

[DaveNZ]

I like your clasp inspite of the denazification and have been interested in it;

however your price is too high for me for such a piece. denazification really takes away from its value imo

if it was more in my price range I would buy it without a doubt. it would go with the very nice denaz bronze u boot clasp I already own.

as Mike said: price is in the eye of the beholder

[90th Light]

I suppose when you stop and think about it however, this is one rare badge.

I mean who ever got this clasp actually survived the war in a branch of service that lost 8 out of 10 members in front line action. (highest losses ever)

but this guy survived all that to actually win this grade of the clasp and then was alive at the end and had to carry out de-nazification of it in a neat caring manner.

That's a hell of a piece of history which really should be worth a lot more than a pretty one which was probably not issued at all to anyone.

Sometimes we collectors have our priorities all wrong and seem to place no value on real history.

Also I have never seen a fake one which was de-nazified.

The recession is probably not helping the sale of this item either,

Chris

[DaveNZ]

I suppose when you stop and think about it however, this is one rare badge.

I mean who ever got this clasp actually survived the war in a branch of service that lost 8 out of 10 members in front line action. (highest losses ever)

but this guy survived all that to actually win this grade of the clasp and then was alive at the end and had to carry out de-nazification of it in a neat caring manner.

Problem is that without any provenence it is all purely speculation.

This badge may not have been issues to anyone for all we know

[90th Light]

Problem is that without any provenence it is all purely speculation.

This badge may not have been issues to anyone for all we know

In my years of collecting, I have never seen anyone denazify an original badge except a veteran or member of the post war German forces who wanted to continue to wear it their issue piece and was required to comply with German law. Some were also denazified in POW camps although this was not common.

There is no gain in denazifing one post war. It is like a kiss of death as this thread proves.

No, I think you can safely beat that this one was issued and worn by someone who was there. All you can not tell is their name or which U-Boat they served on and where.

The clasp which this thread is about is the real deal. Lets not all lose sight of that because it is scared by its own history,

Chris

[peterm]

Hi Chris !

My opinion is as follows:

For me as a collector of groupings (decorations, award-docs, photos, uniform-parts... - of ONE man) it's no problem if I get a piece like that (but also with a lower price) as a part of a grouping.
But if I were only a collector of badges, I never would buy such a piece for so much money ! As others stated: It would be better, to get a top piece at a higher price !

Kind regards,

Peter

[DaveNZ]

There is no gain in denazifing one post war. It is like a kiss of death as this thread proves.

No wanting to stir things up: I collect denazified badges and eks etc and I have come across a fair few that have been denazified in modern times; not by the veteran but by someone else.

I can tell this as the metal is very fresh where the swaz has been removed and the patina is unequal when compared to the rest of the badge.

It could only come from a recent removal.

I am not saying this happened with the aforementioned u boot clasp but just saying that it does happen!

why?? because the swastika is still a very obscene symbol in many peoples eyes and some folk who are not collectors see no problem in removing it from a badge.

[90th Light]

Hi Chris !

My opinion is as follows:

For me as a collector of groupings (decorations, award-docs, photos, uniform-parts... - of ONE man) it's no problem if I get a piece like that (but also with a lower price) as a part of a grouping.
But if I were only a collector of badges, I never would buy such a piece for so much money ! As others stated: It would be better, to get a top piece at a higher price !

Kind regards,

Peter

Hello Peter, this is a fair point if what you want your collection to be only one of beauty.

Bit like women really, beautiful, attractive and eye-candy can cost a lot but at the end of the day it is also nice to have some substance under all those looks and this is my point that a denazified silver U-boat clasp has some real substance but is a bit ugly to most and under-valued by many.

I accept your point however and you are not a lone in your thinking. In fact this is the rule which many collectors apply without question.

For me however, this is about real history and many of these denazified badges are history at a bargain price. you also see them with repaired hinges and catches, collectors go "no, no I can not buy that it is not perfect"

This rule about every thing being perfect was written by coin, stamp and porcelain collectors and in their cases I can understand why. We are Miltaria collectors however and we collect stuff that went to a real war and in real wars badges get damaged and some people lose and have to remove their symbol's and while I can understand fully the pleasure and curiosity of seeing items in their mint, pristine un-issued condition, I would hate to have a collection which was solely based on that.

When I look at my badges I like to know that they were really there and that is what this clasp has a better chance of saying than many of these.

The sellers price is at about half of what an untouched one would sell for and that is probably not too unrealistic. His bigger challenge is probably how tight money is becoming in the current economic climate.

Best regards, Chris

[90th Light]

No wanting to stir things up: I collect denazified badges and eks etc and I have come across a fair few that have been denazified in modern times; not by the veteran but by someone else.

I can tell this as the metal is very fresh where the swaz has been removed and the patina is unequal when compared to the rest of the badge.

It could only come from a recent removal.

I am not saying this happened with the aforementioned u boot clasp but just saying that it does happen!

why?? because the swastika is still a very obscene symbol in many peoples eyes and some folk who are not collectors see no problem in removing it from a badge.

You are not stirring things up and make some fair points but there are several variables which can determine how old a filed piece of metal looks. They do not just simply age evenly with the passage of time. Exposure to elements plays a bigger part. All one has to do to stop rusting is eliminate water, oxygen and extreme changes in temperature. An Fe item stored properly could look new forever.

I accept that anyone can denazify a badge at any time but have never run across such a case in the last 30+ years of my collecting. The ones I have had or seen were done in the period of late45 and into the 1950's but you do raise a good point so lets see what others might want to say about this.

Interesting, Chris

[tomlaan]

Thanks

Thanks Guys for Your oppinions and basicly I support everything what was sayd here. For me this piece has never been just some kind of badge and I have also valued the history as where it has been and for what it has been awarded. Sad thing is that someone has layed his hands on it. Maybe the reicipent itself but we will never know it. I will go on with the attemt to find new home for it and if I reach the point where it doesn satisfie me by price it will just stay in my collection on the honourable place. So as it was stated here the price is in the eyes of beholder.