I have absolutely no idea about these badges, sure it´s a fake because i have found on internet auction site,....
but i would like to be sure.
thanks.
but i would like to be sure.
thanks.
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Hi Javi,
Yes, a definite fake imo. Hardware and basemetal are incorrect for starters.
Regards
MikeRegards
Mike
Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!
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No good.Comment
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It might be helpful if more explanation could be given. I agree that the metal/hardware is different, but the design of the waves and structure of the boat itself is also different when compared to other badges by this maker. Still, this appears to be a nice strike and not a casting, so you have to wonder who made this. The catch appears to have a small baseplate.
Did Schwerin have more than one die for this badge?
KM badges are not my field at all and I would defer to the other posters here. Just real curious about this one.Last edited by Leroy; 11-05-2008, 06:05 PM.Comment
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Hi Leroy,
If the basemetal and hardware are wrong, that should normally be enough to ID a bad badge. Sometimes you have to take it one step further yourself if you have questions and compare a "questionable" item to an original. I'm not going to point out the differences (best if you do it as that's the best way to learn), but if you examine the pics below, in particular the obverse detail, you should quickly be able to see why the badge in question is a fake.
Genuine on the left, even if it is not an example in great condition and the wings are heavily vaulted - don't worry about the swas/flag cutouts as they can go either way on genuine examples.
Note that examples of genuine Schwerins are imaged in the pinned thread Schwerin repro thread above.
Regards
Mike
PS: I firmly believe that Schwerin only ever had one obverse die design for their 2nd pattern E-boat. There are genuine examples known with no maker mark, so a blank reverse die was also almost certainly used.Regards
Mike
Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!
If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!Comment
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rev..Regards
Mike
Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!
If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!Comment
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Not a horrible looking badge at all. For a fake, it makes a decent filler piece for a KM display.Comment
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Thanks for that information!
I can certainly see that the badges are different, but because of the overall appearance of this piece (including the appearance of the back) it is certainly a nice effort by someone. Does the front match any known maker?
When I see a nice fake, it always makes me want to know more....
Thanks again!Comment
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Leroy,
Since you asked:
There are so many things wrong with this almost worthless badge it is hard to know where to start except as Mike said use the search feature and study the badge in question.
Yes, some fakes look better than the original and can be used as a filler I guess. However, they only look better in a photo, not in hand. The best of the fakes look far less impressive in hand IMO.
The answer, use the search function, might not be diplomatic, but it is where you should start. It is also very interesting to read the first posts from years ago and how the knowledge base developed.
It really helps to develop an eye for a badge then you just get a gut feeling that it is bad even if you did not memorize every single S-boat badge made. This eye comes with time and will help you a lot at a show where you might not have any help. Web dealer, just post it here.
When it is determined to be wrong, then use a photo program like what Mike did and study these badges side by side, front and back. You must develop an eye and not depend on the answers being delivered to you on a plate when those answers are actually long and complex in many cases.
So you have some of the many problems already with this badge--the strike is wrong and too clear, the base metal, the maker's font, the retaining pin, also the finish for this badge is completely wrong for 99.9% of the SB S-boat examples. There are so many other problems it is incredible.
JohnLast edited by John R.; 11-06-2008, 10:45 AM.Comment
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John,
I'm sorry you took my inquiry as some plea for a cram course. I certainly appreciate the very hard work of the many people here who have intensively studied KM badges. Although this may come as a surprise, before this particular badge was ever posted I had already previously read every thread on this Forum (and some others) concerning Schwerin E-boat badges, in an effort to confirm that one I had, and ended up posting here, many months ago, was real (it was, thank goodness). I was, quite honestly, concerned that THIS piece had a quality of manufacture, and the appearance of genuine age on the reverse, which could fool many who do not specialize in these badges.
I was simply wondering who might have made this, as it appears to be a new and very dangerous fake which differs from every single fake I have seen posted here or on other sites (including in Detlev Niemann's "Copy Archive"). I just think it's a good thing to know about real badges, old fakes and new fakes, too.
Best,
LeroyComment
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No problem then, I have changed my post so lets go from here. I have now posted just the obverse of a cutout swaz and flag example and a solid swaz and flag example. These are finishes you should expect to see with this maker.
A close comparison of both the good badges with the bad badge will show you just on the front, much less the reverse, how many differences there are.
Sure, it is a decent looking badge, the bad badge I mean, but it is not anywhere near what the original looks like. I am sure it would fool a lot of people at shows, maybe me when I started too since I bought fakes like everyone else, but not today.
Hope this helps, JohnComment
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I forgot who on this forum said keeping up with the fakes is not required, who knows who made this one for example. Just make sure you know the originals and the fakes will not bother you as they evolve. I am sure fake badges are getting better, some of them anyway. Many floating around out there are just awful. However, you will see that there is a basic system for comparision:
Check the obverse and reverse and see if it gives you a good feeling. If you can hold it, so much the better as real ones have a certain feel while the fakes can often feel too light or even too heavy. So this takes a lot of experience and handling of these badges.
Check the hinge
Check the pin
Check the catch
Check the maker's mark
Check the finish to see if it looks like a period example for that badge. Some badges are quite nice after all these years, like the AS, others like Schwerin have faded as indicated above. So if your finish varied from the finish you expect, a flag goes up and you start looking at the other details. Now there can be very nice Schwerin badges of this type, but it is not the norm and what you are looking for are flags--has it been repainted, even on a good one, etc, etc.
If still not sure, you then need weights and measurements if you can get them. Usually, you do not need to go that far
Same applies to all badges as each good one has its own set of points that a faker would have to get exactly right to match. I do not think it is going to happen although some have gotten close--like the U-boat silver frontspange.
It helps to really concentrate on the badge you want if that is the goal. That way you do not have to spend a lot of time trying to remember every S-boat maker. When you have that badge down, you are ready to go to websites, Detlev's update, shows, anyplace, and have the information you need.
JohnComment
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John,
This is excellent information and advice!
Above all, study the originals for certain characteristics and if you are not seeing them, you are forewarned to be very careful before you spend your money.
We older collectors really had it much easier than collectors today. Years ago, fake badges were crude and nasty and easy to spot. In the last few years, however, the quality of fakes has improved dramatically and, as has been pointed out here, some today are actually better made than the originals.
The Submarine Close Combat fakes are coming very dangerously close. In my personal field (LW clasps) I am seeing many, many fakes which would fool the great majority of collectors. My great fear is that, someday, we will need microscopes and scientific testing techniques to know for sure if a badge is bad. It is against that day that I try to follow the latest techniques and styles, just to see how much I should worry. In the meantime, we are learning more and more, and even occasionally discover a real variant not known before. That "unknown" quantity is what fuels the efforts of many fakers and complicates the lives of collectors.
Regards,
LeroyLast edited by Leroy; 11-06-2008, 04:04 PM.Comment
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