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**Philippe DB** · 08-14-2003, 04:01 PM

Hi Toby,

Interesting badge and I'm quit sure that is is a good one.

Personaly I think this is a very early badge. It looks more heavy, less scooped and it has the gold instead of the normaly encountered dark finish on the reverse. The gold finish on the reverse is also something you see on early Juncker artillery badges. The fact that is is such an early badge IMO also explains the slight difference in hinge and catch setup.

Just my 2cents worth.

KR
Philippe

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-14-2003, 04:51 PM

To me the finish on the back seems to be silver.

Cheers, Frank

**Sergey** · 08-14-2003, 11:10 PM

Hi guys, Persanally I dont like it. I started to think so when I have seen the image of the eagle. Details is not clear and I think it is not from the wearing . Also I dont think that it is corrosion( it looks like surface of the cast copy). The ship have most of its silvering, but the wreath is without gold. THe backside is without finish. The pin system is not standart. So I think that it is copy or very worn badge with new finish and new pin. I send the badge in the same condition, but which I like at all.

Attached Files

**Tim B.** · 08-15-2003, 12:32 AM

I don't care for it either

Toby,

I would have to agree with Sergey's observations. The surface details on the ship and eagle appear to be pretty weak and almost "cast-like" in appearance to me. I would like to see a closer clear PIC of the maker's mark, but right now I'd say it's very questionable. Hope I'm wrong guy.

I've included PICS of mine for some comparison--hope it helps.
Tim

Attached Files

**Mike Kenny** · 08-15-2003, 01:29 AM

Hi,

Sorry but from the images this looks like a reasonable quality casting imo. The detail is poor, too poor to be due to heavy wear. Look at the feathering of the eagle's wings adjacent to the chest - this is a recessed area and the detail remain good, even on a worn badge. Same with the cross-bracing of the superstructure on the obverse. The top hook is not correct, the catch is not correct, the hinge and main pin are not correct. Further, I've also seen this type of hinge on repro Schwerin HSF badges. The measurments of my genuine tombak example are 45.5 x 53.8 mm - I'll bet the measurements of this badge are smaller. A repro as far as I am concerned.

Regards
Mike K

**Philippe DB** · 08-15-2003, 02:07 AM

Sorry guys but I read nothing to convince me that this badge is a sure fake.

You'r all correct in summing up little differences with the most common buntmetall Schwerin Destroyer badge, but why would this have been the only variant the Schwerin ever made of this badge.

With the exception of the flagpole that is a little fatter on Toby's badge, the ship and wave details are a perfect match to my standard buntmettall badge. On these standard badges the eagle doesn't show much detail neither, and the little detailing it had can dissapear fast after it's worn a little. The swas detailing on Toby's badge is even better than on mine.

The maker mark for me is spot on and the wear on the badge is very believable. The tombak on the deckline is clearly showing through like you see on most worn destroyer badges.

Untill proven wrong I rather look at this badge as an early variant than as a sure fake.

@ Toby has the badge a silver or gold finish to the reverse, any chance to obtain measurments and weight, I wouldn't be surprised if your is heavier the textbook variant.

KR
Philippe

**TobyR** · 08-15-2003, 12:00 PM

Hi Everybody,

Thanks to you all for taking a look. I've now had a chance to weight and measure the badge, plus re-photograph it in natural light.

Weight: 25.2g

Height: 53.8mm
Width: 45.25mm - 45.5mm (sorry I don't have accurate enough calipers)

The reverse of the badge is in fact gold coloured; also, traces of the mercury gilding can be seen, specifically in the area of the pin.

Re. the mark, the 'B' is almost flush with the reverse of the badge, as is the lower arm of the following letter 'E'.

Re. the pinning, I notice that the catch is of different wire stock, i.e. thicker, than my zinc example, and is bent differently.

Also, I notice that the bottom arm of the swas is slightly distorted, i.e. twisted. Does anyone else have an example that exhibits this trait?

Thanks again for your help.

I look forward to your opinions.

All the best,
Toby.

Attached Files

**Mark S.** · 08-15-2003, 12:06 PM

This badge looks like a cast copy to me as well. A rather well done one, but it just doesnt have the detail we have come to expect from a Schwerin badge of any type, not just the Destroyer badge.

It is bad enough that all the hardware is wrong, (and not just a little) but the scorch marks around the mounting areas is not what I would want to see on any Schwerin badge.

The wear is also uneven. The wreath looks like pure brass, with absolutly no trace of fire gilt in the nook and cranny's of the leaves. Although there is wear the the edge of the ship, there is none on the superstructure of the bridge area, especially the front leading edge (corner), which always wear.

The detail on this badge is nonexsistant, and doesnt relate to excessive wear. For the eagle to be completely devoid of detail, and excuse it as wear, I would expect to see a whole lot more brass showing through on the center section as well.

The cast looks carries over to the reverse as well. The edges of the badge are to crisp for me to be comfortable with this being a tombac badge (which is obviously is). None of the characteristics of a real tombac badge are exhibited on this one. The slight beveling from hand finishing around the edges, the light "lip" from stamping out the insert voids, none of it is on this badge. Speaking of the stamped voids, the area around the mast and the wreath is shaped differently than a real one as well (picture to follow)

I also spent some time comparing this to mine, and although I can see where the maker mark would tend to make one a believer, it also shares the same lack of detail that the obverse shows. Very weak.

Also, I couldnt help but notice how soft the edge definitions are on the badge. Every angle is rounded off, even on the inside. Wear? Hard to say. It looks like it went through a rock tumbler.

We have seen amazing copies of the 1st Eboat, the HSF badge, and of course the Aux. Cruiser badge, I realy dont know why this particular one would stand out above the rest as a possible early badge, or even a prototype. Comparisons with real Schwerin Destroyer badges fall short, and comparisons with manufacturing details of Schwerin in general dont even exist on this badge. I think that trying to justify this one is grasping at straws.

Attached Files

az.jpg (18.1 KB, 205 views)

**Philippe DB** · 08-15-2003, 01:49 PM

Strange, the fakers even got the dimentions and the weight right

Toby I'm 100% sure that you have a rare and 100% original badge.

KR
Philippe

**Mark S.** · 08-15-2003, 03:37 PM

Not strange at all.

Take a look at this fake 1st eboat. This has a lot more going for it than Toby's destroyer, as a matter of fact, the weight on this was exactly the same to the tenth of a gram as a real one featured on Gordon Williamson's website.

Notice the acute attention to detail on this badge, the obverse coloring, the beard on the eagle, correct hardware on the reverse with no scorch marks even the handfinished beveling on the reverse edges is there!

I could easily see where one might make the same arguments, but it is still a fake.

Attached Files

1steboatx2.jpg (39.5 KB, 186 views)

**Philippe DB** · 08-15-2003, 03:51 PM

Hi Mark,

Your right, quit convincing but the perfect alignement on the Maker Mark for me is a sure give away on this E-Boat.

Look at this comparison of Toby's mm with my textbook Schwerin Destroyer's mm. Notice how the "W" in Schwerin hovers above the base line, how the "I" and the "N" in Schwerin are positioned slightly higher.

In Berlin notice the bigger space between B E R compared with the 3 last letters, and also notice how the upper circle in the "8" doesn't seem to close to the right.

If the fakers are getting that good in faking a MM than, we all better pack and start collecting stamps or teddy bears.

KR
Philippe

Attached Files

TOBY PDB.JPG (72.7 KB, 188 views)

**Philippe DB** · 08-15-2003, 04:04 PM

Hi Mark,

Just for the record, this is the correct MM for a 1 pattern E-Boat and I think it will be clear to everyone even in comparison the the small mm visible on your pics that they are miles apart.

KR
Philippe

Attached Files

Schwerin 1 mm.jpg (43.0 KB, 185 views)

**Sergey** · 08-16-2003, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

Hi Mark,

Your right, quit convincing but the perfect alignement on the Maker Mark for me is a sure give away on this E-Boat.

Look at this comparison of Toby's mm with my textbook Schwerin Destroyer's mm. Notice how the "W" in Schwerin hovers above the base line, how the "I" and the "N" in Schwerin are positioned slightly higher.

In Berlin notice the bigger space between B E R compared with the 3 last letters, and also notice how the upper circle in the "8" doesn't seem to close to the right.

If the fakers are getting that good in faking a MM than, we all better pack and start collecting stamps or teddy bears.

KR
Philippe

Hi Phillippe, if the fakers take ofа the copy from original, so the maker mark must be very close to original, but please pay attention to thikness of all letters in maker mark of Toby's badge. They all more thick than the letters in the mark of original badge. I have seen this effect on the copys take off from original badges. Also letters have not clear their edges, which is typically for cast copys. So I think:
1. that it is very worn badge, but I dont uderstand how it is possible to wear badge that its mark became not clear. Usualy original worn badges which I have seen have backside in normal condition, but obverse usually was hard worn.
2. that is Cast Copy. In this case it must be light than original (it is Elementary phisics)

**Tim B.** · 08-16-2003, 02:43 AM

Not for my collection

Philippe,

Sorry, I'm not buying it and agree wholeheartedly with Sergey in that this is a cast copy. Details are just not there and as Mark pointed out, the wear patterns don't look normal for a supposed worn badge IMO.

Toby,
There are a lot of Schwerin destroyer badges out there and some are still fairly inexpensive. One just sold on eBay the other day for around $200. and was in very nice condition--original & textbook as well! My recommendation is to save your money on this one and get a better one that comes along.

Tim

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Schwerin Destroyer - Opinions Please

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