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**Frank Heukemes** · 07-20-2003, 05:36 PM

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**Philippe DB** · 07-20-2003, 06:22 PM

Hi Frank,

I would rather put my money on an unmarked C.F. Zimmermann (L/52).

KR
Philippe

**George Stimson** · 07-20-2003, 06:31 PM

Just askin'

I don't know that much about U-Boot badges (yet!

), but if Godet and Zimmermann shared (or had identical) dies for the EK 1 and RK, could they have had the same arrangment on these?

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-20-2003, 06:38 PM

I think Zimmermanns and Godets are pretty close, but one big difference is the catch. Looking at the broken off remains of the catch, this looks more like the square Godet catch to me.

Cheers, Frank

**Gordon Williamson** · 07-21-2003, 12:25 AM

What is the material ? I have seen one with a 21 mark, but didn't like it. Something about the use of a PK mark on an early Tombak badge didn't quite ring true.

Zimmermann/Godet did have some sort of link with their EKs but it doesn't mean they did for everything else - for example their DKs are totally different. I have seen the Zimmermann type U-Boat badge with three different pin set ups so far, and Schwerin U-Boat Badges can be found with round or square section catches, so I wouldn't be too sure that this is anything other than a Zimmermann piece. Very nice though.

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-21-2003, 03:26 PM

Dear Gordon,

The base material is Buntmetall, brassy tone. The "silver" you see in the backside dent is because somebody filled that dent with silver solder and then (somebody else?) scratched it out again.

A pity that it is a bit ruined.

I have two pics of Godets in my files, one is from Bob Hritz, another from our member Christian (Germany). Comparing my badge to these pics (which are not terribly detailed) it seems to be a match.

I only have one Zimmermann pic in my files, a Detlev sales pic, very tiny.

Not really easy to definitely match it for me that way. Would you be kind enough to post a good Zimmermann pic?

Cheers, Frank

**Gordon Williamson** · 07-21-2003, 04:17 PM

Here is an L/52 marked Zimmermann, looks identical, even to the step in the line of the keel towards the stern visible on the reverse, same pin and hinge too.

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-21-2003, 04:56 PM

Great, thanks!

I thought about 21 Godet because on the supposedly Godet U-Boat-Badges I have seen, the 21 mark sits right where this badge of mine has something drilled out. I cannot find any good reason why somebody would drill a mold there (on a good badge) and fill it with solder. Any explanations?

Cheers, Frank

**Gordon Williamson** · 07-22-2003, 12:26 AM

Frank,

Its bizarre. I can't imagine why anyone would want to remove a
maker mark if one was there.

I've seen the 21 marked pieces and something about a PK mark on an early Tombak badge doesn't ring true for me. I'd rather have a Zimmermann marked piece or unmarked. No diffiiculty with the badges themselves, just the 21 mark, also the 21 mark itself as on the pieces I have seen was identical to the 21 in a box mark found on the fake EK2 Spange.

Seems strange to me that Godet would make a U-Boat Badge only. Where are the 21 marked High Seas Fleet, Destroyer,Auxiliary Cruiser etc ?

Not saying Godet U-Boats are wrong, I just need a little more convincing

**Frank Heukemes** · 07-22-2003, 03:17 PM

That´s right, Gordon. But we will have to admit that somebody used his head when he stamped Zimmermann U-Boat-badges with the 21 mark and not let´s say GWLs. Somebody in the know with his mind set to confuse.
The Präsidialkanzlei number on a Buntmetall badge is indeed a bit unbelievable though, but might be possible theoretically, no? At least one example comes to my mind: the 30 marked Buntmetall wound badges.

Cheers, Frank

**Gordon Williamson** · 07-22-2003, 04:28 PM

Frank,

You are absolutely right, PK marks on good quality awards is not impossible, just a little uncommon, but would be virtually unique on U-Boat Badges.
It would be nice if they we real and Godet pieces could therefore be positively identified, but personally I'd rather have an L/52 or an unmarked one of these. Its not just me. I have discussed these "21"s with one or two of the top names we all trust and they don't like them either.

**Gordon Williamson** · 07-24-2003, 12:47 PM

Here's another, gilded Tombak, but with needle pin. Obviously from the same tooling.

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