Schwerin U-Boat Timeline--Major Revision to study

[John R.]

Does anyone have a picture of the so called Maker Mark # 1 and # 2 for comparison? I see many that are stamped light, some stamped deep, some small, some larger, round lettering, square lettering ...

I do not agree the that the upside down hinge was Schwerin, I believe it was S&L. See my thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...64#post3045364

Here is a photo of the letter sizes found to date on genuine Schwerin badges. There are actually three, small, medium and large, but as will be discussed later in this thread the large one is the standard stamp used in wartime.

You can compare your badge with these to determine which you have. John

[L11-VELASCO]

hi robinson
the one posted below than i purchased from km-spain has hinge block reversed and was told by him and others who posted was schwerin,what do you think...?thanks in advance form spain
fernando
http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21958

[John R.]

hi robinson
the one posted below than i purchased from km-spain has hinge block reversed and was told by him and others who posted was schwerin,what do you think...?thanks in advance form spain
fernando
http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21958

Fernando,

I do not agree with the conclusions of the thread above. Search that forum for the S&L submarine badge and you will see where your badge is attributed, possibly, to S&L.

Bottom line, if I was buying a Schwerin Berlin U-boat badge, I would buy one of the ones I have listed on the timeline, with or without the stamp, but preferably with the stamp (makers mark).

To be clear, the stamp is nice to have, but it does not make the badge more of a Schwerin than the unstamped/unmarked Schwerin version.

I do not think the upside hinge is Schwerin as I have stated for the reasons stated. It is a nice badge, however, but I would not pay a premium for it since it is missing that stamp and does not meet the characteristics of the unmarked Schwerin IMO.

I feel that the responsibility of authentication should be done prior to purchase and not after. I am sure KM-Spain thinks it is a Schwerin and you must have also. I do not.

Before we go to the stage of "prove it is not a Schwerin" I will leave that proof to the seller and now you the buyer.

However, at this point, I think you just have to accept that you bought it and what you own either:

1. Unknown

2. A Schwerin of extremely rarity since no maker marked badges with the reversed hinge exists

3. A S&L

Much conjecture and opinions based on established versions of Schwerin, in the end, you must decide. A conclusive answer can't be provided.

The knowledge base has evolved over the last 5 years and your badge falls into the category of opinion at this point. One thing for sure, it is a period tombak badge.

John

[John R.]

Gordon Williamson on GMIC just posted since this thread is running in two places now and agreed that the badge in question is probably a S&L, not a Schwerin.

John

[rhudspith]

John Robinson and I had a long chat about this quite some time ago and in summary we tend to agree with all that is said above i.e. there is only one die which deterioated and was modified over the course of production. The only thing we don't agree with is on the reverse hinge badge which I believe is Schwerin and John and Gordon favour S&L. There was another thread about this attribution

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258163&highlight=s%26L

in which I resonded - "In my opinion a late tombak Schwerin. Also IMO this is not a S&L produced badge as the badge itself is made from a Schwerin die therefore produced by Schwerin. It may have an S&L style pin and be shown in a catalogue but I can not see how you can make the jump that the badge is produced by S&L. The best one can assume is that either Schwerin obtained some pins from S&L or the supplier to S&L for a certain production run and reversed the hinge to accomodate these to allow the pin to stick out of the bottom or that Schwerin supplied the badge and some fitments to S&L for them to retail. Out of interest the picture shown in the catalogue IMO is not that of the later tombak type badge which has this style reversed hinge and "long" pin but of the earlier type commonly found with the wire catch"

To prove to me that this is not a Schwerin badge I would need to see some close ups clearly showing different die characteristics. This I believe will prove difficult as it is easier to show the opposite. I am away at the moment but will try and find some pics which will hopefully settle this argument for good.

Anyway not withstanding the above on the timeline there are some other points of note. The smaller maker mark is only found on the later thicker neck badges with the square hook. Also there is a distinct difference between the top of the eagles wings on the early rouund wire and later square wire badges. This is that the top of the wing has a frosted finish on the earlier and a burnished finish on the later. You will find that the later burnished top of wing is more pronouced indicating that the die was slightly worked out. The early frosted wing in more flat, with almost a concave appearance.

IMO, pure speculation of course, this change was done to bring it in line with other Schwerin badges with a similar top wing such as the 1st Eboat and Aux Cruiser, both of these being instituted around the same time (Apr, May 41). If this was the case then it would give a timeline of the change between the two distinctive types. The zinc badge which is quite rare when compared with the tombak would have to have been introduced in 43.

Looking forward to a lively discussion

[John R.]

Hi Rob, not sure if you can access GMIC, but here is Gordon's response:

"The other interesting questions of course, for those who believe these are Schwerin, is - Where are the S&L badges ?

We have a period Steinhauer catalogue which shows three KM badges, - Minesweeper, U-Boat and Destroyer.

S&L Destroyer badges are well known as are the Minesweepers. Yet, no one has ever been able to produce a verified U-Boat badges. Why?

So, what is the answer ?

1. S&L illustrated a U-Boat badge in their catalogue but never actually had them - unlikely.
2. S&L manufactured a U-Boat badge , but different in appearance to the one in the catalogue - unlikely considering the high level of visual
accuracy for which S&L catalogue illustrations are known.
3. The unmarked Schwerin "type" badge which matches the catalogue illustration not only in appearance but in fittings (which do not match
other Schwerin pieces) might actually be an S&L or offered by S&L.


I know which option makes sense to me.

So, despite having all the requirements for a match to the one in the catalogue, if this type is not the one in the S&L catalogue, where are all the S&L U-Boat badges ? Abducted by aliens ?

One could argue about die characteristics etc but this would be meaningless, if - as suggested- the blanks were stamped by Schwerin and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. Then of course they would have an identical obverse to the true Schwerin badges as the hardware is the only thing that differentiates these from the normal Schwerin.

So the question again, if not this type - where did all the S&L badges disappear to ?"

[Mike Kenny]

Schwerin do appear to have either shared dies (or gave/received copies of dies) from other companies for other badges. Eg the "E" footed Schwerin obverse Minesweeper Badge design is shared by a couple of other manufacturers (eg Assmann). It's possible that there was some sort of die arrangement with S&L. For me the PROOF would be to find a genuinely marked S&L U-boat badge - but that has not surfaced yet and for me the Schwerin-S&L die relationship can only remain a theory at this stage.

Regards
Mike

[John R.]

Schwerin do appear to have either shared dies (or gave/received copies of dies) from other companies for other badges. Eg the "E" footed Schwerin obverse Minesweeper Badge design is shared by a couple of other manufacturers (eg Assmann). It's possible that there was some sort of die arrangement with S&L. For me the PROOF would be to find a genuinely marked S&L U-boat badge - but that has not surfaced yet and for me the Schwerin-S&L die relationship can only remain a theory at this stage.

Regards
Mike

Hi Mike,

Could you post an image of what you mean by E footed for benefit of this thread.

Darrell, I think you got your wish.

Thanks, John

[rhudspith]

Hi John,

Nice discussion, pity we can't make it over a beer or two, or three.

Anyway back to point, unfortunately I can not access the GMIC, perhaps you can post the reverse picture from the S&L catalogue here, I can only find the picture of the front posted below. The badge posted in the S&L catalogue IMO does not match the characteristics of the Schwerin badge at the particular period of time in question, it is more like the very early round wire catch version. Hopefully you will be able to post the reverse so we can discuss in this thread.

I think we all tend to agree and disagree to some extent. My point was that this badge is definately manufactured from a Schwerin die. We all know that some co-operation existed between manufacturers so in my opinion the best one can say is that maybe Schwerin co-operated with S&L whch allowed them to retail the badge with an alternate fitting.

I have PM'd George Stimson to post one of his uboat badges, hopefully this will throw the cat among the pidgeons as we say in the UK

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Mike,

Could you post an image of what you mean by E footed for benefit of this thread.

Thanks, John

Can't at the moment.

Easy to see though. Instead of talons/claws, the eagles "feet" on Schwerin (and other) Minesweeper Badges look like a slanted capital "E".

Regards
Mike

[George Stimson]

Here's mine.

[George Stimson]

Reverse, with upside-down pin and maker mark.

[rhudspith]

Thanks George, is it possible to provide a close up shot of the maker mark?

[George Stimson]

"Thanks George, is it possible to provide a close up shot of the maker mark? "

I'll be home in a few days and I'll try to do it.
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[John R.]

Some points made on GMIC about the reverse:

"Now look at the pin shapes from the reverse side.

Its not just a case of the length of the pin, but its shape. The typical Schwerin pin has its widest part near the top. The other pin has its widest part more centrally positioned.

Now compare with the Steinhauer catalogue illustration. You can clearly see from the outline profile of the pin where visible that the pin on the S&L badge has its widest part in the centre - just like the badge in this thread - and not at the top like a Schwerin pin.

I'm quite prepared to believe that the badges themselves may have been struck by Schwerin, as blanks without fittings, and sold to S&L who added their own hardware. This kind of "sharing" is well known from other awards.

One thing is sure, the badge in the catalogue offered by S&L is a Schwerin "type" badge, and the appearance of the pin ( its curvature and the excessive length) would be produced by exactly the type of pin on the badge in this thread.

To me, there is more circumstantial evidence for this type being S&L, than Schwerin."

I do have an observation about this comment though. If you take the right badge and flip the hinge upside down, the wide part goes up and into the left hand badge position I think.

John