Frank & Reif Stuttgart U-boat badge

[Mike Kenny]

..."a well made late 20th Century post-war produced reproduction badge based on an early style of U-boat badge from the early 1940's....

Hmmm. Too much of a mouthful for me Jody. I think I'll abbreviate it to "fake"

Regards
Mike

[John R.]

Hello,
From now on I am going to refer to the Frank & Reif U-boat badge as "a well made late 20th Century post-war produced reproduction badge based on an early style of U-boat badge from the early 1940's."

Regards,
Jody

I love it Jody. The Professor in you is coming out. I am now going to repost the rare donald duck submarine badge that made its appearance late war (meaning after Desert Storm)

John

[Jody]

Donal Duck U-boat

I love it Jody. The Professor in you is coming out. I am now going to repost the rare donald duck submarine badge that made its appearance late war (meaning after Desert Storm)

John

Hi John,
IMO, that is a fine example of a post-war produced badge.

Jody

[Al P]

The true "angry Donald"

Don't get hung up on silly terms and definitions,I am with Mike, the badge is a fake.


Al

[genoa41]

Hi John
Many thanks for your kind remarks that give me the chance to express in detail what I have said concisely
Fake : counterfeit, superficially resembling or imitating fraudulently something.
In these terms we talk of counterfeit Louis Vuitton hand bags , Rolex watches ,...
F&R has not produced UBadges during the war , therefore the badge we are talking about ha no model to copy and claims a non-existent authorship. In my opinion it is just an oddity as for instance the GAB mm JFS or the Budapest schild.
Whereas you think that every UBadge produced after 1945 is a fake .
It is a different viewpoint.
Speaking of post-war production, I think it a fake , even if imaginary, the UBadge Hymmen design and Schwerin mm as it uses a current mark in war production.
Well , as to the difference between a fake and the post-war production, Souval is really a matter on which to split hairs.
Not to go too far and to end a semantic debate ,I think the problem od fakes is a serious one and deserves a close investigation on the techniques capable of tackling it.
All the best
giorgio

PS : in short I said Hymmen design , but I should have said "unknown maker". I apologize to GW

[genoa41]

....

[John R.]

Well expressed Giorgio. I think we all understand your point now. thanks for posting the Hymenn type fake with the bogus schwerin maker's mark.

Best wishes, John

[peterwyndavies]

A link to this excellent thread was posted as part of a reply to a U Boat Badge that I had posted some time ago. Recently I looked it up again, wondering if I had recollected correctly that Frank and Rief never made these badges, because a prestigious British auction house, specialising in selling Militaria, were selling one as an original.
I find it extraordinary that such an auction house, widely regarded as being experts in this type of item could make such an elementary error.
What chance for the ordinary collector indeed! I just hope that the purchaser returned it.
I think that this forum is a fantastic resource for collectors, and is where the real experts are found. It has certainly saved me from buying several fakes, and I would not even consider collecting this type of item without being a member.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the experienced collectors who are members, for helping us less experienced ones out.
Thanks,
Peter Davies

[John R.]

Hi John
Many thanks for your kind remarks that give me the chance to express in detail what I have said concisely
Fake : counterfeit, superficially resembling or imitating fraudulently something.
In these terms we talk of counterfeit Louis Vuitton hand bags , Rolex watches ,...
F&R has not produced UBadges during the war , therefore the badge we are talking about ha no model to copy and claims a non-existent authorship. In my opinion it is just an oddity as for instance the GAB mm JFS or the Budapest schild.
Whereas you think that every UBadge produced after 1945 is a fake .
It is a different viewpoint.
Speaking of post-war production, I think it a fake , even if imaginary, the UBadge Hymmen design and Schwerin mm as it uses a current mark in war production.
Well , as to the difference between a fake and the post-war production, Souval is really a matter on which to split hairs.
Not to go too far and to end a semantic debate ,I think the problem od fakes is a serious one and deserves a close investigation on the techniques capable of tackling it.
All the best
giorgio

PS : in short I said Hymmen design , but I should have said "unknown maker". I apologize to GW

Now known to be based on a Deumer design, not Hymmen. John

[peterwyndavies]

Thanks for that correction John, and for your and other experienced collectors' good work on this forum.
Peter

[John R.]

Well, it took many years to figure out Hymmen vs. Deumer in tombak.

Here is a Hymmen

[John R.]

Deumer solid reverse

[John R.]

Deumer hollow back

[John R.]

So the fake Schwerin was based on the beautiful Deumer obverse, but plenty were bought in the early years. John

[John R.]

At least to my eye based on the Deumer, but maybe based on Hymmen. Either way, with the stamp, it is a fake. John