Fact or Fiction

[Tiger 1]

I was under the impression that a navy crewman automatically received the appropriate warbadge when he was wounded or given a bravery award such as the Iron cross - even if this occured on his first mission.

Karl

Karl,

The regulations may have stipulated this to be so. But in actuality this was often not the case. I have found many instances where the submarine war badge was awarded after both classes of the EK and in one case the DKiG. I also found that in many cases it was awarded at the same time as the EKI. Unfortunately the reference material available to me makes no mention of Wound badge award dates.

All the best,

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Salut,

Assuming an low average crew of let's say 15 men, owning each 3 badges, we already have potentialy 2,700 Minesweeper badges for this small sector alone ...


yves

Potentially the 15,000,000+ soldiers, airmen and sailors were all eligable for the EKII, EKI, DKiG and the KC. Unfortunately potential awardees doesn't necessarily translate into actual numbers of badges or medals awarded.

As I mented above look at period pictures of groups of sailors, soldiers or airmen. Look at the number of the awards that are visable. I would venture to say the many will not have even the basic 'common' badges that they have the potential to earn.

All the best,

Tony

[Simon O.]

If I am not mistaken it was also awarded in NAZI form well after the war.

As the Allies used KM vessels and crews to clear mines well into the 50s.

Perhaps the crews had to destroy/turn in their NAZI badges at one point to get the 57 version?

I have seen one Post war Pic of a ex-KM officer wearing his NAZI badge in 50's next to a RCN Lt.


Just a though

Speaking as one who collects a fair bit of KM paperwork, especially to the small ship flottillas i've yet to see any evidence of this. I also have several photos of men serving in the GMSA (German minesweeping administration) and their decorations are not being worn. The bundesmarine of course is a different matter.

Thus far i've seen the following decorations awarded post-May '45 but still as part of the wehrmacht.

Lappland shield (of course)
KVKII m\S
EKII
EKI
WB in Black

The EKs i know of are all for mine clearing on land, a VERY dangerous job that saw many hundreds die.


IMO, the minesweeper badge must be the most awarded of the KM badges. As a whole the small ship flottillas must have seen far more action throughout the war than the capital ships and even the destroyers\torpedo boats. You have the S-boote of course but that branch was tiny compared to the mass of R, VP, U-jäger, MS, Landungs and other flottillas. It's also not uncommon to see men from the capital ships transferred to the smaller ships as that branch dwindled during the course of the war.

[John R.]

I would tend to agree that the mine award was probably the most awarded km badge due to the reasons that Simon has detailed.

I also would point out that anything to do with mines is very dangerous, ashore or at sea. Sea mines have always been "effective" weapons of devastating power.

Clearing/countering them is highly technical and also very dangerous to the crews involved. I doubt if all of these little vessels in the various flottilles had a lot of sophistication at their disposal, just guts, as was the case so often with their Allied counterparts.

While a bit off the subject, the fear of minefields certainly kept both Axis and Allied submarines and surface ships away from ports and anchorages and it noteworthy in most U-boat memoirs that the departure and arrival of a submarine is always discussed in detail, ie, the mine escort ship guiding the submarine through the mine channel.

Besides WWI and WWII, I the famous image of the US minesweeper blowing up off Korea comes to mind, but that ship was not the only casualty.

The mining of Haiphong Harbor on May 8, 1972 (Vietnam time) certainly helped bring the war to an end for the US, preventing any ships into that port and keeping the ships already at the pier there. The North Vietnamese could not sweep these mines, too dangerous, the US had to do it later as part of the cease fire agreement. I think the last mine was swept in late 1974 or even later. They finally go inert, they say.

The Iraqi sea mines basically kept the Marines off the beaches of Kuwait during Desert Storm (they marched up the coastal road from Saudi Arabia) when two major US warships almost sank including a new cruiser after striking mines.

Mines will continue to be a big weapon for both sides in the Persian Gulf if it comes to that. They are very dangerous, very tricky and getting more tricky by the day, and extremely hard to clear. Remember the outrage against the US for using dolphins or the reflagging of merchant ships to US flags because of Iranian mines? Well, without making a comment on dolphins or humans, it shows that the chess game continues with this potent device.

Also remember, even if only one mine has been planted at sea, I do not think a merchant ship can sail into that area due to insurance clauses. Anyway, mines will put a serious dent into your bottom line even if your ship does not hit one.

I only mention this bit of history to point out that although probably the most common KM award of them all, it does not diminish the bravery of the men that earned it or the award itself. It is a reflection of the extent of sea mining in WWII on both sides and how effective these low cost weapons were when used as they were by the Germans and Allied forces.

[münster]

I know a bit off topic, but does anyone know if there are still Sea Mines floating around in the ocean from ww2?

[Theodor]

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armyn...es/story10.htm

There are still many more floating around

[Simon O.]

Yes there are still a lot of sea mines from the war still out there. Land mines too as i know from personal experience


Back to the badge in question. One of the reasons it's so prevelant is because it was the catch all decoration for all those other small ship units. Coastal convoy escorts, anti-submarine operations, landing craft, mine laying, flak ships etc. Almost totally ignored by mainstream history books but they were the back bone of the KM surface fleet, especially in the later war years. To give an idea, i've just made a rough count of RK holders who gained the RK whilst serving in a unit that came under the umbrella of the minesweeper badge award criteria. I came to 73 RK and 5 EL holders, that's second only to the U-boat arm as far as the KM goes.

[byterock]

Speaking as one who collects a fair bit of KM paperwork, especially to the small ship flottillas i've yet to see any evidence of this. I also have several photos of men serving in the GMSA (German minesweeping administration) and their decorations are not being worn. The bundesmarine of course is a different matter.

I had a change to look at the pics I have seen of a post war RCN lt next to a KM officer with his NAZI mine-sweeping badge and on closer examination I can tell you that

1) the Officer german officer was in the Bundesmarine
2) the badge looks like it was de-NAZIified
3) the picture was taken in the later half of the 50s not the early 50s

just though you would like to know.

[Ludwig]

-

Perhaps he was thinking of Hilfskreuzer badges? They were fewer than RKs.

[all1knew]

Hello,

Well for being so "rare" the Minesweeper badge sure is priced fair and can be bought just about anywhere.

..........I think there are quite a few more than RK's.

William Kramer

[münster]

The guy really knows his stuff whom said this,,,Was the strangest thing he ever muttred..I did a double take when he said it.

[paddywhack]

dont forget even the dolphins new the mines were dangerous!! they buggered off when they were let go to find mines!!!!