Fact or Fiction

[münster]

I was in a badge conversation a wee kago and one guy claimed that there are fewer minesweeper badges then RKs, is this true?

[Jody]

I was in a badge conversation a wee kago and one guy claimed that there are fewer minesweeper badges then RKs, is this true?

Hello,
Where did he get this information from? He might be right, there are a heck of a lot of Minesweeper badges.

I can say this, there are fewer Army Paratrooper badges and silver 1st and 2nd pattern U-boat clasps than RKs. That is just an observation.

Regards,
Jody

[münster]

Hi Jody, Just another collector in the area I hang out with sometime. We both ran into a minesweeper and I let him take it because I had no interest. We got around to talking about KM stuff. He then told me that info and it kind of stuck in my mind for a bit now,,seemd strange but logical in a way.

[John R.]

I do not know the actual numbers so this is just a guess. I think there would be many more minesweeper badges than RKs, but in both cases, there are a lot.

My reason is that every crewman on a vessel engaged in minesweeping and other qualifying work got the badge. We are talking trawlers, fishing boats, cruisers, destroyers, lots of vessels. This was not just for minewseeping of course, but sub chasing, escort vessels, probably mine laying also. The award requirement was not too tough to meet either. So now multiply all these ships against the crew sizes which constantly turned over and I see no way there are more RKs than Minesweeper badges.

Like the kids say these days, maybe the answer to no way, is "way", but I do not think so just by the math.

John

[Hank C.]

I think you could pretty well figure it out just by going to various dealers sites and counting them. That'd give a real rough idea on which there are more of.

Personally, I know I see a lot more minesweeper awards docs than RK docs.

Hank

[münster]

Yes, you guys are right I would say. Was just a strange thing for someone to say , was so weird I figured maybe its true,but nahhhh

[Tiger 1]

My reason is that every crewman on a vessel engaged in minesweeping and other qualifying work got the badge. We are talking trawlers, fishing boats, cruisers, destroyers, lots of vessels. This was not just for minewseeping of course, but sub chasing, escort vessels, probably mine laying also. The award requirement was not too tough to meet either. So now multiply all these ships against the crew sizes which constantly turned over and I see no way there are more RKs than Minesweeper badges.


John

John,

I have to differ with you on your statement above. Not EVERY crewman on any vessel recieved the appropriate war badge. No way. A boat such as a fishing boat not manned by bonafied naval personel would not be eligable for any military badge. The only exception to my statement here would be the Blocade Runner badge for Merchant seamen.

Further........

I was looking thru my references a while ago to see when the earliest submarine badges were awarded. Along with that information I found something unexpected and very interesting that would be particularly pertinant to this discussion.

Quite often , more so than just the ocassional fluke, a sub commander recieved high valour awards such as the EKI , DKiG and sometimes even the KC BEFORE being awarded the Submarine war badge. I'm refering to the basic sub badge and not the later clasp. Couple this fact with a study of naval crew pictures and you will plainly see that not everyone recieved the appropriate war badge for just being aboard ship. Be it minesweeper, sub, destroyer, etc. it was just not the case.

Just some thoughts,

Tony

[John R.]

Hi Tiger,

What I meant was that there were many vessels, including ex-fishing boats, that were used by kriegsmarine personnel in manners which would merit the award of the badge. All kinds of vessels were absorbed into the kriegsmarine by the hundreds during the war, manned by naval personnel of course.

Of course you had to be in the navy to get the badge in question.

In the case of the minesweeper badge as we loosely translate the word, it was much more than that in the case of the kriegsmarine. So, I was trying to point out that a multitude of different kriegsmarine vessels and their crews qualified for this badge---award was very much up to the kriegsmarine for this badge, there were not hard and fast rules for this one. Sure, the correct number of missions meant you got it, but you could also get it for a dangerous mission.

The basic requirement was three operational sorties: this is not a big requirement if you are in the Navy. There were many other ways to get it also, but this was not a hard badge for which to qualify compared to a RK.

Naturally on the first mission you could have done something very heroic I guess and get the RK or EK or DKIG and not have qualifed for the war badge for the type of vessel in which you were assigned.

In any case, civilians did not get the badge as you have pointed out.

John

[Karl S]

I was under the impression that a navy crewman automatically received the appropriate warbadge when he was wounded or given a bravery award such as the Iron cross - even if this occured on his first mission.

Karl

[sturmann]

Minesweepers

Salut,

I was recently reading a book about the KM in St-Malo during the occupation.

Due to the important traffic with the Channel Islands there were at least, at any time, 60 ex-civilian boats, maned by KM crews, pressed into service in St Malo alone in addition of course of the "real" purpose-built minesweepers .

Assuming an low average crew of let's say 15 men, owning each 3 badges, we already have potentialy 2,700 Minesweeper badges for this small sector alone ...

And I am still trying with my greedy eyes to track them all down

yves

[Robin Lumsden]

Dion.

I see your plan here.

You have a case-load of Minesweeper Badges you want to offload at high prices!

[Robin Lumsden]

I was under the impression that a navy crewman automatically received the appropriate warbadge when he was wounded or given a bravery award such as the Iron cross - even if this occured on his first mission.

Karl

Korrekt!

[münster]

Hahha Robin,,nooooo

Was just one of those things when someone says something you dont even feel like argueing, but in the back of your mind it sticks there and you chuckle a bit!

I think the figure on RKs awarded is about 7,420 or so

[John R.]

And now that Robin has figured out the true purpose of this thread (being by profession suspicious of things like this), of which I did not spot but now am sorry I did not since I have at least 4 old minesweeper badges I could have traded for RKs but was too stupid to see the plan, there is another interesting statistic.

According to Robin in his excellent reference "Medals and Decorations of Hitler's Germany", there were only 7869 Bronze without Swords Spanish Crosses awarded, many of which were Kriegsmarine, making it equal to the RK in rarity.

Dion, next time you have a super good idea like this, let us Minesweeper badge holders know in advance, the RK guys will then line up for an even trade. Always wanted an attributed RK and now, will never happen.

[byterock]

If I am not mistaken it was also awarded in NAZI form well after the war.

As the Allies used KM vessels and crews to clear mines well into the 50s.

Perhaps the crews had to destroy/turn in their NAZI badges at one point to get the 57 version?

I have seen one Post war Pic of a ex-KM officer wearing his NAZI badge in 50's next to a RCN Lt.


Just a though