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**John R.** · 07-24-2006, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Jody Beltram

Hi John,
All I know is that in the 70's they were sold as reproductions. They ran around $4.95 or so.

In the late 80's early 90's I started seeing them being sold as real. I personally don't trust them. I guess it is like the Heer Balloon badge, or Luftwaffe Panzer badge. Not for my collection.

Regards,
Jody

Jody, No doubt about what you are saying, but what I am trying to say is that did the patch you handled have this same style gold wire loop with extensions on the reverse?

Fakes were made of badges, but there are real badges. Are you convinced that these were never used in the war at all, and go into the post war fantasy or semi-fantasy (marinefrontspange) bin.

Like I said at the start, I do not have one of these nor do I have any plans on getting one, just trying to get to the bottom of this issue if possible.

John

**FW 200** · 07-24-2006, 12:02 PM

Were the marinefrontspangen fantasy? I have a pic of my uncle wearing one, but I am not certain of the date of the pic. I also have a pic of him wearing a newer Federal Navy type. Maybe all post war? He died 4 years ago, I can no longer ask him. Charlie

**Jody** · 07-24-2006, 12:23 PM

Cloth U-boat badge

Originally posted by trident3

Jody, No doubt about what you are saying, but what I am trying to say is that did the patch you handled have this same style gold wire loop with extensions on the reverse?

Fakes were made of badges, but there are real badges. Are you convinced that these were never used in the war at all, and go into the post war fantasy or semi-fantasy (marinefrontspange) bin.

Like I said at the start, I do not have one of these nor do I have any plans on getting one, just trying to get to the bottom of this issue if possible.

John

Hi John,
The cloth badge I had did have that same type of weave on the reverse (I remember cutting the threads on the reverse). There was also some type of maker initials (I think) on the bottom.

That is about all I can remember about it. That was back in 1976 and I was 11 or 12 years old. I didn't bother to analyze it, because it was what it was, a fake. They were very common back in the day and were sold at all of the shows. My friend Victor used to have three of them on a roll and used it as a book mark (they also had some intials on the bottom). I sold them as fakes on my old web-site Beltram's German Militaria in the mid 90's. Heck, they are probably being sold as real now. When WAF appeared in 1997 or 98 (do any of guys remember those days?) I posted scans (I no longer have the scans) of those fakes and we discussed them at some length. Although at that time, there was just a handful of us on the forum. Those fakes I sold matched the one posted on this thread.

I guess I may be stubborn (not the 1st time), but it would take a whole lot of proof and convincing for me to accept them as originals. As I have said before, not for my collection.

Your Friend,
Jody

**skip** · 07-24-2006, 03:43 PM

Jody is correct. Even in the 80s these were to be bought as fakes for a few quid.
The maker mark is "KEEN" and you can see it on the right side of the pictured example, its in dark blue thread and quiet hard to see.

There are still lots of these around and easy to find at shows and auctions.

Not for my collection is the right sentiment.

Skip

**Bruce Simcox** · 07-24-2006, 03:58 PM

Hi Jody......

.......

When WAF appeared in 1997 or 98 (do any of guys remember those days?)

I remember when it was just white lettering on a black background with staggered style set-tup......it has been awhile, but I do remember the old discussion on these. I would be very wary about adding one to my collection, if at all.

But, as John has said(and I'm paraphrasing): "It would be good for this hobby to see more in-depth(excuse the pun) reasearch on these."

**John R.** · 07-24-2006, 07:07 PM

misc

FW200, please do not get me wrong, perhaps I stated it poorly. I said the marinefrontspange was semi-fantasy in that a lot of real documents were awarded towards the end of the war, and I am sure some ship made marinefrontspange badges were produced and awarded before the war ended.

It is my personal opinion though most of the badges we have seen were made after the war but for veterans since it did not have any political insignia on it. For example, the Prinz Eugen crew can be seen wearing this award after they arrived in New York after the war. When were they issued, not sure, maybe before the war ended, maybe not.

Since the insignia was not there, they wore it, but took off the HSF badge and the kriegsmarine tally and all other WWII items from their uniforms, but they were still sailors of course, just the insignia that had politicial attachments were not allowed by the US Navy Captain in command for the sail over to New York City.

So I think a lot were in the possession of German navy men, they earned them, but the war ended before the official one came out, but exactly when the German sailor got the badge is hard to say and it is even more difficult to say who made it and where.

So your relative's badge is certainly real and has great value in my mind since whether or not it was made after the surrender or not is immaterial, it is a good badge, his badge, and it does not get much better than that.

So it is not a fantasy piece, that was a poor way to describe it, it was a real piece, just unknown when real German sailors got their hands on one, and of course, reproduced in great numbers since the war.

John

**John R.** · 07-24-2006, 07:14 PM

Jody

Based on Jody's recollection of the reverse, I think this U-boat patch probably has been discussed enough to put great doubt in it plus the point skip made.

For me, this case is closed and I would look elsewhere to spend my money I think.

Thanks Jody for clarifying that the reverse was indeed the same as the one you had in the 70s.

I think we would all agree that some old issues need to be revisited from time to time, new members, maybe some deleted posts. Even opinions change, but in this case, the patch has not improved its position as the years went by.

I think the long memory of some of our members is what makes this forum work, plus some elbow grease from time to time.

John

**Jody** · 07-24-2006, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by trident3

Based on Jody's recollection of the reverse, I think this U-boat patch probably has been discussed enough to put great doubt in it plus the point skip made.

For me, this case is closed and I would look elsewhere to spend my money I think.

Thanks Jody for clarifying that the reverse was indeed the same as the one you had in the 70s.

I think we would all agree that some old issues need to be revisited from time to time, new members, maybe some deleted posts. Even opinions change, but in this case, the patch has not improved its position as the years went by.

I think the long memory of some of our members is what makes this forum work, plus some elbow grease from time to time.

John

Hi John,
I am heading up to my mother's home tomorrow and I will dig through some of my stuff (I am a pack rat). I still think I have a Unique Imports magazine and if I find it, I will scan the page that has the badge on it for sale.

I hope we can still get together on the 4 or 5th of August for the OMSA Show.

Your Friend,
Jody

**Jody** · 07-24-2006, 07:34 PM

Cloth U-boat badge

Hello folks,
This thread got me thinking. These cloth badges were known fakes 30 years ago and now some dealers and some folks are buying them as originals. What other known fakes today will be mistaken as orginals in lets say 40 years (if they are still collecting WWII by then). By then Black wound badges will be $400 and Pamzer badges will be $2,000+.

If we have children maybe we should be tucking away for them to sell down the road-Frank & Reif U-boat badges, Scharnhorst cap tallies, and Cave Creek specials.

Just some food for thought.

Regards,
Jody

**Terrence** · 07-25-2006, 01:48 AM

its too bad these wire "cloth" badges were not available during the war. They are very attractive and well made. I believe some sailors might have opted to wearing these instead of some of the zincers. I have one in my collection, just in case Jody's prophecy comes true.

Terrence

**mrg** · 07-25-2006, 07:49 AM

Hi Guys a little late but i have handled several of these at various shows and personally I do not like them. The ones i have seen have a very silvery thread and do not match the stitching of the cap tallies. Through the grape vine (a and i do not know if this is correct, but i heard they were being produced in India) Nicely done i have to admit but as the saying goes Not one for my collection either.

**Ludwig** · 08-01-2006, 04:43 AM

-

No matter how well made, personally I don´t believe in them. I would save my money in this case, William.

**Anthony** · 08-04-2006, 08:50 PM

Hi Guys

These cloth badges sure look good, BUT, they were made in a factory that produced cloth badges by a few guys in there spare time, there were other badges made as well, Destroyer and Army Para badge, this as told to me 15 years ago by a very informed person!!! who was offered them to sell, hope this helps, so if there are originals it is a very hard call

Regards,

Anthony

**Anthony** · 08-05-2006, 07:52 PM

I forgot to say that the year these were done was 1980

Regards,

Anthony

**Jody** · 08-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Anthony

I forgot to say that the year these were done was 1980

Regards,

Anthony

Hi Anthony,
They (cloth U-boat badges) were made before that, because I bought one in the mid 70's. At that time they were being sold as reproductions.

Jody

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