Schwerin Destroyer analysis

[Jeff V]

Thanks for the arrows John. I have to admit I am not seeing anything here, perhaps on other badges it is more noticeable.
jeff

[John R.]

OK, you are correct and I have corrected the wording. DD is USN for destroyer, just a habit on my part. SB meant Schwerin Berlin.

OK, I am not sure there is a die flaw on these badges. That is why it is open for discussion. The HSF badge sure has its pronounced die flaw and it is certainly part of the badge, the flaw getting worse as time went on.

Not sure if we are talking the same thing.

I am not sure I see a difference between the two catch type badges, but if there is a completely different tomback destroyer by Schwerin than the ones posted, I would like to see that.

[John R.]

Schwerin destroyer

Clasp type two obverse

[John R.]

type 1 obverse

[John R.]

So I leave it to the forum to:

1. See if there is a difference between the two badges obverse since we know the catch is different.

It does appear to me that the area around the boiler stack on example 1 (red background which has the second catch) is rougher around the boiler stack than the example two which has the first catch where the area around the boiler stack is very crisp.

2. If there are any other tombak schwerin destroyer badges out there not represented so far.

3. If the areas I have already indicated as die flaws are in fact die flaws that a fake would not have anymore than the HSF fakes have the correct die flaws.

4. Are there any cut out NS insignia on any of these badges?

[Peter J.]

Hi John,

There is one detail that seems to be void in all discussions on the Schwerin Destroyers. I've seen it on all type 2 badges, but never on a type 1. Check out the leaves I've marked on the image. There are lines parallel to the center veins. They are thinner and gives the illusion of being scratched. If there weren't two obverse dies, I'm all ear to hear an explaination for these lines .

KR
Peter

[John R.]

Hi John,

There is one detail that seems to be void in all discussions on the Schwerin Destroyers. I've seen it on all type 2 badges, but never on a type 1. Check out the leaves I've marked on the image. There are lines parallel to the center veins. They are thinner and gives the illusion of being scratched. If there weren't two obverse dies, I'm all ear to hear an explaination for these lines .

KR
Peter

Would other forum members post their Destroyer badge, type 2, with these scratches for comparison? Good eyes Peter, lets confirm it.

[John R.]

Thanks for the arrows John. I have to admit I am not seeing anything here, perhaps on other badges it is more noticeable.
jeff

OK Jeff, I believe these are die flaws. Yes, they are part of the badge, but they are flaws that should have been not evident if the die was perfect. Like the High Seas Fleet badge, except for the early first type, the die flaw is the first thing I look for in a real badge since most are later versions.

I have the arrows pointing to the flaw as I see, the extension of metal past the leaves that should not be there. I also have an arrow to the right pointing to the boiler stack, it is not finished as well as our example with the first type catch. You would think the second type would be better, but the first type catch badge seems to have better finishing. Other badges posted might clear this up.

John

[Jeff V]

OK John, I get it now, the schwerin coastal arty has these in abundance as well.
jeff

[John R.]

[quote=Mark Schroeder]

"Also, isn't there two distinct types of tombac Schwerin destroyer badges that go beyond the catch style?

Great work nonetheless..I have some destroyer badge research I did a few years ago, I will see if I can dig it up. Pay attention to the waves splashes on the bow, every make has small differences."

Can anyone answer the question posed by Mark, are there two distinct Schwerin destroyer badges beyond the catch style. So far, all the badges posted so far are basically the same. John

[rhudspith]

Also, isnt there two distinct types of tombac Schwerin destroyer badges that go beyond the catch style?

I would suprised if there were more than one die for the Dest badge. I don't think Schwerin had more than one die for any of the badges (maybe the U-boat spange might be an exception), the HSF and U-boat badge are found in differnet styles but this is mainly due to the dies being reworked over a period of time to correct faults.

Mark, look forward to reading your research if you can find it.

Also I believe that some of the Schwerin badges (especially those with the none flat reverse such as the 1st Eboat) actually had the reverse of the die inset (not just flat metal with the name) to half the thickness of the wreath. Not sure if this applied to the Destroyer but if so any misalignment of the front and back would cause excess material to be shown on the edges. The way to determine if this is the case is to carefully meaasure the height of the naming from the bottom of the badge as this is a fixed point of reference for the reverse die. If it is slightly higher on those badges which have the excess material then the above applies. John I think this may account for the "die flaws you have highlighted with an arrow" Hope this makes sense.

Peter, never noticed the lines parallel to veins, well picked up. Don't think it is due to a differnet die but more like a fault. Be interesting to see if it appears on any other of the Schwerins or just the Destroyer, also how it fits into the timeline for this badge.



Rob