Schwerin Eboat 2nd pattern colors?

[Lorenzo Brown]

Here is a sampling of Schwerin 2nd pattern E-boat badge scans that I have in my PC files. I believe that these are all authentic, but they are in different stages of wear...and some may have been refinished. More to my point is WHAT COLOR scheme did Schwerin use on its 2nd pattern E-boat badges?

I have seen various mixes between the top and bottom hulls. It seems that the upper part of the hull is usually white-silver, but the lower portion varies between white-silver, light grey, dark grey and gold.

I have seen several examples of each type, so I am thinking that Schwerin may have produced these badges with different color schemes. Any thoughts?

[Kecon]

Hi Lorenzo

Sorry, I can't answer your question, but I will add another to the mix. Why are their so many different shades of gold found on these navy awards? I've noticed two identacle badges by the same maker often sport different shades of gold color. Not just Schwerin, but other makers as well. Even fire gilding gold shades sometimes look different. I have doubles of some naval badges and they have different in color. Why is this? Does it have something to do with the elements in the air where they have been stored all these many years?

Regards
Ken

P.s. Thanks, Lorenzo, for your great web site. I use it often for reference. Has been a very valuable tool for me.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Ken. I think the different shades of gold are due to several factors:

Firstly, I think that "zinc" is an alloy comprising various mixtures of materials. I think that makers used various mixtures over the years for both economic and experimental reasons. Different alloy compositions would react differently with the finishes, both gold and silver, and thus the same maker's badges will have different shades of finish after 60 years.

Secondly, I believe that makers used different chemical mixtures and components for their finishes. These variations were driven by both economic and aesthetic purposes. Needless to say, different finishes will age differently over 60 years.

Thirdly, Kriegsmarine badges were subjected to varying degrees of salt air and ocean water which will cause the finishes to age differently.

Finally, badge recipients and subsequent collectors all stored and handled the badges differently. Some badges were polished and stored indifferently, while others may have been put away in safekeeping. Differences in storage and handling will causes the finishes to age differently. Combined with the other factors above, I think that is why we see so many variations in the gold and silver finishes on Kriegsmarine badges made by the same manufacturer..

[Kecon]

Hi Lorenzo

Many thanks for taking the time to explain the differences in the shades of colors of these badges. I now have a much better understanding of why they differ so much.

Never too old to learn!

Ken

[skip]

Yes, as always very interesting, thanks Lorenzo.
I think you may have forgotten one thing in your reasons why the gold tone differs so much. Some collectors paint these themselves with modelling paint, that would also explain the wide variety.

Skip

[Neil Howes]

Are all Zinc??

Hello Lorenzo

Thanks for posting the collection of pics.

I hopefully have a simple question. From reading past posts on the forum are ALL Schwerin 2nd pattern EBoat badges made from zinc?

I am looking for a nice one at the moment, so I am spending alot of time staring at the pics!!

Regards,

Neil

[skip]

As far as is known all SCHWERIN eBoot badges are made of zinc.
However it is speculated that AS made eBoot badges from "buntmetal"

Skip

[Neil Howes]

Thanks Skip, that helps me when looking for one.

Regards,

Neil

[Mark S.]

I myself have never seen a buntmetal 2nd eboat badge, but Detlev does list a value for one in his book, Bewertungs Katalog 1871-1945.

I have no idea if they are limited to a specific maker or not.

I wish someone would post a picture of one to see once and for all to put the controversy to rest.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Likewise, I have never seen a 2nd pattern Schwerin E-Boat badge in tombak...nor have I ever seen a 1st pattern Schwerin E-boat bage in Zinc. If this is truly the case, that means that Schwerin switched over from the 1st to 2nd pattern design at EXACTLY the same time that they switched from tombak to zinc. I suppose that is possible, but I can't think of any other badge that has done that. More likely there was AT LEAST one production run of either a 1st pattern badge in ZINC....OR...a 2nd pattern badge in tombak. Perhaps only 500 or so of either badge ever manufactured. Interesting speculation, but we won't know until somebody shows one. Either would be a very rare badge.

On the question of the "AS" marked E-boat badge. I believe that these badges were produced in high quality feinzinc and the reason some folks think that they are made of tombak is because the underlying "base coat" is gold. Thus, when you see these badges with the first layer of silvering worn off, you will see a gold color. People think it is tombak, but in fact, it is a gold undercoat on zinc. This is the same as the "AS" Minesweeper badge which many believe to be tombak, but are actually zinc with a gold basecoat underneath the silver waterspout.
(PS---BTW I believe that this is the reason that you see so many "AS" marked badges with their original finishes still intact. The gold basecoat acted as a "primer" that enabled the final finish to adhere to the badge.)

Now...back to my original question. Did Schwerin produce its 2nd pattern E-Boat badge with different colors on the lower hull? ie: silver, grey and gold?

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Lorenzo, regarding boat finishes, I'd say several different combinations are probably correct and would be dependent on the batch/run. My own example is one of the later non-cut-out types and has the silver for the upper 2/3 rds of the hull and grey for the lower 1/3 rd, however on my badge the owner has painted the lower 1/3 RED (definitely old and well worn, not recent)!!

Restricting my comments to Schwerin, it is theoretically possible that some 1st pattern badges (introduced end of May, 1941) were produced in zinc and some 2nd pattern badges (introduced January 1943) were produced in tombak. There is no evidence for the latter to date (ie, no known genuine 2nd pattern Schwerin badges in tombak) and I personally don't think there would have been a need for production of 1st pattern badges in zinc.

Why? The S-boot arm of the KM was not large (which is why the badges are not common and even zinc badges are expensive). There were only a total of about 330 boats in service during the war (including captured boats). Of these, only about 1/3 rd were actually in service prior to the institution of the 2nd pattern badge in January 1943. The total complement for the 330 boats was around 6300. There would have been a certain percentage of sailors who were replaced for one reason or another, adding to the total. How many actually qualified for the badge though? Unlikely it was 100%! Probably closer to 50%, maybe as low as 25%. There were great hopes for the S-boot arm initially however these were never realised and, on the whole, the S-boots had little effect on the outcome of the war. I can easily see the scenario where the 1st pattern badge manufacturers, of which Schwerin was not the only one, filled KM orders which were higher than actually required at the end of the day (overestimated). If only 2 or 3000 1st pattern badges were produced in total, there would probably not have been the need for further production until the second pattern was introduced. This is obviously specualtion on my part and you can do your own estimates from the numbers provided (calculated from M J Whitley's "German Coastal Forces of World War Two" - Arms & Armour publishing).

Regards
Mike K