What is this one? Sub related? Thanks

[AZartman]

not sure what this is...thoughts?

I guess I'll be supplying a movie prop house or theatre group soon enough...

[AZartman]

2

2

[AZartman]

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3

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[AZartman]

5

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[AZartman]

6

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[Øyvind]

If this badge is original, then its very rare. Correct? Cant remeber the name of it right now.
Have seen some 57`s versions on cloth with the same motiv.

Cheers
******216;yvind

[AZartman]

thanks

That would be nice if it were...I have one more like this but the material and quality are different...I just assumed that one was fake as well, or if real, it was a late war version with cheaper materials.

I will post it once I hear a bit more about this one...I like the look of it...someone said it was a type of "SEAL" commando piece maybe for the german military...opinions welcome.

Thanks

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Alex, search "KAMPFABZEICHEN DER KLEINKAMPFMITTEL" and you should find some info

Cheers, Ade.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Here is a 1957 issue:

http://www.german-militaria.de/details/d33127.html

More info here:

http://www.uboat.net/men/decorations/midget.htm

Cheers, Ade.

[AZartman]

1957 issue

Pardon the question, but these were issued in the year 1957? So this is a post war item? Is this one I posted real? Thanks for the help!

Alex

[John R.]

frogman clasp

I am no expert on this badge, but have always gone by the idea that this badge was never issued in the war. According to Robin Lumsden's book, he states that the badge was designed and institued on 13 Nov 1944 for presentation to frogmen and crews of midget submarines and other unconventional craft. It was supposed to come in bronze, silver and gold. Lumsden states production did not take place before the end of the war.

The cloth version is assumed/proven to have existed, maybe, and good luck knowing a real one from a fake, but in this case, Lumsden states it was issued late in the war. You sure see enough of these everywhere, there must have been 50,000 of these guys by the number of cloth badges for sale, and hey, they did not even get them dirty. Uh, oh, now we will start seeing dirty ones.

Just for information, "SEALS" are the descendents of the navy Underwater Demolition Teams that existed first, then side by side, then were eliminated after Vietnam. SEALS are sailors of course, but technically, they do not even work for the Navy anymore, they work for SPECWAR Command for orders, something that occured in the interests of putting all special forces personnel under a common command --if this is better or not for the Navy, I do not know, but have my opinion. This is not a criticism of any SEALS out there--I am not that stupid.

SEALS are commandos of course, but their daddy organization, the UDT (frogmen) units were experts at mine clearing and obstacle clearing, not for fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan. It got blurred a bit in Vietnam, then the UDT guys were phased out, and when we went to Desert Storm 1, Iraqi mines did a big number on a couple major US warships which were lucky not to sink. In other words, we ended up with no UDT teams, and nobody around that could clear mines that well, maybe a few dolphins but not good enough and if you recollect, there was no amphibioius assault on Kuwait during the war due to the mine danger which was not solved by the time Stormin Norman decided to start the ground war, so, the Marines landed in Saudi Arabia and marched up the coast, did not assault it.

Pehaps things have changed since. I do not know. I for one really respected the UDT forces, they were great. SEALS are great also, but their mission is not the same.

So, my point is that the KM and the very effective Italian frogmen were not SEALS, they were really more like UDT in US terminology. Both the KM and especially the Soviets did have SEAL type units, none of whom you wanted to tangle with and more than you want to tangle with any country's special forces.

Back to the badge, maybe, but probably not, and maybe this helps in terminology. John

[AZartman]

interesting

Good info John. Certainly helpful. Still trying to figure out what to do with this piece? Maybe others will have thoughts as well.

Thanks again.

Alex

[Frank Heukemes]

Some say rare originals have a smooth back fin, not a lined one. I personally was not thrilled by the smooth fin ones I saw either. A bit like believing in the LW Panzer Badge.

[AZartman]

well does this one get dumped too?