Unmarked Schwerin Berlin U-boot in Zink???

[dkelley]

I have a U-boot badge that specs out to a Schwerin-Berlin, but unmarked and gold washed made from zink or kriegsmetall. I tend to feel the badge is okay, but have never come across a zinker like this one.

If this is a faker, I sure would appreciate your comments.

Thanks all,
Dan

[dkelley]

Reverse

Reverse

[dkelley]

final PIC

Last Pic.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Dan,


IMO this is a true zinc Schwerin. Most of the time collectors mistake the zinc Deumer's for Schwerin's

KR
Philippe

[dkelley]

Hi Phillippe.

Thank you for your opinion. You would then not also agree they were not fire gilt finishes but gold washed? Or were they able to continue the fire gilt process even with zink badges? The finish under light or in the sun is bright like a fire gilt Schwerin. The reverse is not smooth, most likely due to the metal used to make the badge. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Dan

[Philippe DB]

Hi Dan,


As far as I'm aware firegilding was not a technique used on zinc badges. However finishes on zinkers can be very good and most frosted finishes with polished highlights will be encountered on zinkers. When these are in good condition you better don't look at them in direct sunlight without wearing sunglasses

KR
Philippe

[rhudspith]

Looks like one, but not sure, there are a couple of points on it I would not normally expect.

Can you post an angle photo of the hinge, also give some dimensions and weight.

[Hans N]

IMO the space between the sub and the lower part of the wreath is more wider than what i have seen before on Schwerin U boat badges. It´s just something i noticed, nothing more or less.

[Hans N]

Just take a look on this one to compare, that´s currently for sale on the E-stand:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=123376

[dkelley]

Comparing the badge on E-stand to this one, two differences seem very clear. The E-stand badge uses the earlier Schwerin hinge with a mushroom button hinge pin. And of course the obvious cut-out swaz makes this badge more desirable...for me anyway.

My guess is the E-stand badge is an earlier zinker that used existing parts for the buntmetall badge while in transition because of material shortages. rhudspith asked for dimenions and weight. Weight from my old analogue powder scale says 22.20g. Top width of the wings are 3mm, swaztika is 7mm, wreath is 7mm, overall width is 48mm, height is 39mm. According to Mike Tucker's book "German Combat Badges of the Third Reich" pages 256, 257 and 260, dimensions are text book as I stated earlier. Page 260 shows an unmarked Schwerin with a different hinge and white metal attachment pin.

I am curious to know though, on cut-out swastikas, were they literally sawn out or did they use a different die entirely?

I cannot do the camera angle until I get a camera that can give me super close-ups and download to my computer. I saw a picture of a collector who used a white tall microscope that appeared to have the technology to download PICS. High tech anyway. If anyone can recommend a camera or microscope??, mounted, not hand held that will allow super close-up pics and angle shots, etc, gosh that would be great. Any recommendations?

Thanks again,
Dan

[rhudspith]

Just a quick reply for the moment. Check against this one

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...d.php?t=104715

Will give my full thoughts later this afternoon when I get a bit time. Tending to think this is not a schwerin.

[rhudspith]

OK here we go, IMO some thoughts to put into the pot.

The estand badge is a later issue tombak / brass version with the square section catch and thick neck to the eagle.

I believe that Schwerin had only one die for the u-boat badge as with all of the other Schwerin naval badges (U-boat clasps excepted). The only changes which sometimes appear are to the reverse which differ in the amount of recess (Blockade & HSF).

Schwerin U-boat swastikas were cut out as part of the die process. They were not hand cut out. The only Schwerin badge to have a hand cut swastika is the 2nd pattern e-boat.

Looking from the back, the cut out below the boat appears quite different to me from other Schwerins, also the pin, hinge and especially the catch is nothing like I have seen on a Schwerin. One would expect the catch to be of rectangular cross section on these late badges not round wire.

The neck of the eagle also looks too thin for such a late badge. By this time i believe the die had deteriorated significantly in this area giving a rather fat looking neck.

Although the dims look quite good the weight of the badge is about 15% heavier then I would expect. The finish also looks a little bright to me, on zinc schwerins it is common for this finish to loose its colour or brightness totally. I would say one in this condition would be very rare indeed.

Look forward to any other views or comments

[dkelley]

Hi Rob.

Thank you for all of your input. You present a strong argument in favour of the E-stand Schwerin. As a gazed at the neck structure of my example and compared them with your two examples, I can offer some additional thoughts.


I re-measured the entire badge from top to bottom and add the following: The wreath beginning at the cut-out below the U-boot measures 7mm from corner to corner of the "smile." From the top of the eagle head to the bottom of the swastika measures 20mm. If you are correct, what else could the badge be? In every area I measured, the measurements are spot on. The neck is more narrow than both examples. The rounded brass C-catch conforms to marked and un-marked Schwerins. Both your examples with the wide catch and the rounded brass catch have been discussed before. Either style is accepted as Schwerin design.


I have an unmarked Schwerin Blockade Runner Badge, with Detlev Niemann's letter of authenticity with a non-conforming hinge and pin. Incidently, it does have a squared C catch. I am really confused now.


Thanks Rob. Can we have more opinions here?

Dan

[dkelley]

Obverse

[rhudspith]

Hi Dan,

Sorry I have to disagree with you and Detlev on this one, I do not believe this is an unmarked Schwerin. Just compare the cutouts with this marked one.

Also you mention the round wire catch. What you say is partly true. The earlier tombak u-boat badges had a round wire catch applied directly to the badge. The catch is usually mishapen and looks like a form of copper / brass wire.

I believe that this catch due to its flimsy nature was eventually replaced by the rectangular cross section catch in line with all other Schwerin badges (2 pattern U-boat clasp excepted). I have never seen a Schwerin badge with round wire on a base plate. Even the rectangular section catch itself comes in two forms but only the second type is found on the U-boat badge: Extract from article on Assoc Web Site

Type 1 – These are of a true “C” shape and have been noted on early manufactured Tombak badges where they are attached directly to the badge.<O></O>

Type 2 – It is thought that these catches were a development of the Type-1 being well formed with a curved top and a flat bottom and were introduced to in order to aid attachment. They are found on both late manufactured Tombak badges where they are attached directly and on all Zinc badges where they are attached with the aid of a base plate."