RS&S HSF pin and catch variations

[Lorenzo Brown]

Here are scans of 4 Richard Simm & Sohne HSF badges. I think these show a progression of changes that the maker made as the war progressed, probably for economic or practical reasons. Each has the crimped-in ball hinges, but the pins and catches vary.

#1. Flat pin and wide catch.
#2. Round pin and wide catch
#3. Round pin and flat-wire catch
#4. Round pin and round-wire catch.

I believe that the maker started with the custom-made flat pin and wide catch as in badge #1. Both the pin and the catch were custom made to fit the badge. It is an extremely nice set-up, but I suspect that these pins and catches were costly to make, and the pins were soon abandoned for a standard round pin that would work
just as well. Badge #2 would show the first deviation with a round pin and the wide catch that were probably leftover in inventory.

Then, having changed to the round pin, the next deviation would go to the flat-wire and round-wire catches (#3 and #4), both of which appear to be common inventory stock that were adapted to fit into the crimping area for the catch.

[Frank Heukemes]

Great research, Lorenzo! Nice to see them all in a row.

All I ever owned briefly was a RSS HSF fake with a Schwerin type pin system. I am looking for a real "type 1" RSS. Despite the fact that they are zinkers, they are very nice!

Cheers,

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Lorenzo,

I agree, nice work! I only have an example of the first type - zinc but nicely detailed. I've seen some examples of the needle pin variety but have never really given them much thought. Nice piece of research on an uncommon badge (in genuine form anyway!!!).

I'd consider swapping 3 and 4 around though as the rectangular catch setting is well pronounced on badge 4 (to me indicating that the reverse die had not been heavily altered) however on badge 3 the rectangular catch setting region appears badly butchered (to me indicating some serious reworking of the reverse die).

Regards
Mike K

[Mark S.]

Interesting theory. I remember you mentioning this before. Glad you picked back up on it.

So you are saying that the ones that have been labeled as fakes with the needle pins...arent? Are there any fakes with the needle pins at all?

What about the obverse? Exacting detail, from one to the next? Is there any special trait that carries from badge to badge?

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Mark. The RSS HSF has several distinctive characteristics. Notice how the eagle's chest protrudes as if "bursting" out. Also notice how the claws are etched into the swaz. The ship is very well struck and the design includes a third smaller cannon (?), or something that looks like that, between the Antons.

[Mark S.]

And these die characteristics are evident on each of these badges?

[skip]

Once again Lorenzo has delivered an excellent bit of research, into the personal archives with all this.
Lorenzo have you ever thought of writting a book, maybe a well known (ex) dealer should have come to you before publishing his.


Skip

[Lorenzo Brown]

OUCH!!! Mark, you are holding my feet very close to the fire.
In answer to your question, badges #1 and #3 are mine and they definitely have these characteristics. #2 and #4 are from scans, but you can see them in the scans below.

Here are the obverses of the badges studied, in the same order as shown before.

Oooops...the obverse scans of #2 and #4 are reversed from my original order. On the obverse scans...#4 is on top and #2 is beneath it.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Here are close-ups of the design characteristics I spoke of. You have to look closely, but they are all there.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Finally, here are the reverses of the badges again, and I believe they all share a die flaw that I noticed and have circled. There appears is a small bump located on the reverse edge of the wreath.

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Lorenzo !
Nice work and research on HSF by RS&S .

Lillegutt

[Mark S.]

You have obviously done your homework! Very good! These are obvious to me that they all came from the same dies.

So where does this leave all the badges that have been labeled as fake?

Are there fake RS&S HSF badges?




(as Rick L. mentioned in another post....this is why you never deface your fakes..you just never know)

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Mark. Personally, I haven't encountered any fake RS&S HSF badges that are like the one's shown here. Not to say they don't exist...but I haven't seen any. These are fairly rare badges.

However, as Frank said, there is a fake RS&S HSF that looks nothing like the above badge. It has a "Schwerin-type" of hinge and catch and is purported to be made of tombak. I have seen one of these badges and they are not made from tombak, but a white metal. These badges were rampant on Ebay several years ago. A certain dealer was selling what seemed to be an unlimited supply. He'd sell one ...then the next week he's selling another. He was also selling an extremely dangerous fake FO Destroyer badge that had a flat, horizontal pin, also made of the same white metal. Just my personal opinions!!

[Simon O.]

I know this thread is a little old but as the old saying goes "Great threads never die"

Actually, last night i picked up some items from my old collection which have been on loan to the local museum for the last 5 years or so.
After reading this great thread i thought it would be worth showing my own HSF RS&S type 2

I know the scans are large but i feel it's worth it for the detail. Look for all the points Lorenzo mentions.






Despite the fact that i've broken up my decorations collection, i just couldn't bare the thought of parting with my KM badges

Simon

[StevenD]

Great thread!!

I saw a few of the fake HSF's mentioned...the early examples...and they are very convincing, it is good to know that they were never made though, thanks, Steven