MHJ Flag

[John R.]

I have posted this before on the HJ Forum, but will post again here. From my collection. MHJ=Marine Hitler Youth. This is not normally what you would expect, but there are reasons why the cropped tally would be on the flag also. It is on both sides, so two tallies were used.

John

[Darin S.]

A very interesting flag John. Early as well from the designation on the Canton panel. Thank you for showing.

[Hohenlohe]

Really interesting flag, it comes from near the village were my father was born!

[paulj]

Cool flag. Does the capband unit correspond to the designation on the corner patch? And is the green for Landjahr or the region?

[John R.]

Cool flag. Does the capband unit correspond to the designation on the corner patch? And is the green for Landjahr or the region?

According to Garry at the HJ-Research Forum:

You have two separate identifiers:

Bann 73/Unterbann VI/Gefolgschaft 2
A separately applied blue strip of material with '1/445 Hoya' (<ACRONYM title=Marine-HJ>MHJ</ACRONYM> tally) directly below the Bann 73 patch.

As I said, doesn't make sense on first inspection but... there is a link between these Banne and here is what happened:

Bann 73 was originally called Mittleweser but was changed to Diepholz as part of a reorganisation in 1935/6. Part of the territory previously covered by Bann 73 was transferred to the new Bann 445 Hoya which was created during the same reorganisation. This raises the possibility then that the area covered by Gefolgschaft 2 of Bann 73 now belonged to Bann 445 Hoya meaning that the flag was redundant. That in turn raises the further possibility that this flag, rather than being disposed of, was put into use by Gefolgschaft 1 of Bann 445 Hoya until its own flag was made and issued. A transitional flag if you like. The appearance of the flag with its two-colour cord and Unterbann marking definitely places it in the period where the reorganisation took place so from that perspective my scenario works too.

Whether the scenario is actually true we'll probably never know but what is true is that there was a definite link between Bann 73 and Bann 445 due to the reorganisation in 1935/36 and that the flag configuration (if you overlook the 1/445 tally) is correct for that period.

I really like the flag and nearly bought it myself when it was on offer but I just didn't have the cash free at the time. A very interesting item.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[John R.]

A little update from Garry at the HJ Forum:

Bann 445 Hoya first appears on the RJF Bann lists in 1938 and Bann 73 Mittelweser is still shown as Diepholz on the 1937 list so this must also have changed in 1937/8. So, this part: "Bann 73 was originally called Mittleweser but was changed to Diepholz as part of a reorganisation in 1935/6. Part of the territory previously covered by Bann 73 was transferred to the new Bann 445 Hoya which was created during the same reorganisation" should read as follows:

"Bann 73 was originally called Mittleweser but the name was changed to Diepholz as part of a reorganisation in 1936/7 (exact date unknown to me). Bann 445 Hoya was created in 1938 and some of the area previously covered by Bann 73 was transferred to the new Bann 445 Hoya".

[wilhelm Saris]

Maybe this helps:

With the re-organization of the HJ Bann-number 73 was first mentioned in the “Verordnungbslatt der Reichsjugendführung” from August 4, 1933.
The Bann existed at Niedersachsen and was known as Mittelweser and located with its headquarters at Diepholz (Oberbann 3 at Hannover). As such
it was mentioned in “Aufbau, Gliederung und Anschriften der HJ” from January 20, 1934.
It is further mentioned in the “Anschriftenverzeichnis” from March 1, 1935. It still was as Mittelweser, located at Diepholz. In about 1936 the headquarters
changed to Sulingen. In the book “Organisation der Hitler-Jugend” with the stand from August 1, 1937 it was as before: Mittelweser/Sulingen. With the
“Vorläufiges Anschriftenverzeichnis” from about March 1939 Bann-number 73 was known as Diepholz and still at Sulingen.

445, existed in the district Niedersachsen and was known as Hoya with its headquarters at Bassum. It did not exist in the list from August 1, 1938 and
was not mentioned before the introduction of the Bann-numbers fort he Obergebiet Süd-Ost (Austria), 501 through 573 (one must note not all numbers
were “granted” yet). It may have lasted at least until September 1938, as when the district Ruhr-Niederrhein was splitted into Ruhr-Niederrhein and
Düsseldorf (“Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt” VI/17 from September 2, 1939. Bann-number 446, 447 and 448 did exist since November 1938 and had to do
with the splitup of another Bann. In that month also the numbers 455 through 465 came into being (Amt.Nbl. VI/22 from November 11, 1938).

[wilhelm Saris]

And is the green for Landjahr or the region?

The green will have to do with the color for the Oberbann: green, which was its color in 1933/1934.
73 existed in Oberbann 3 Hannover (which had the color green).

Normally the use of a tally as indication was not allowed. Not even with a traditions-flag. 445 got a
flag on its own!

[John R.]

Thanks Wilhelm, as usual, your knowledge of the HJ is amazing. I appreciate very much you sharing this information.

One of my main areas of collecting, as you know, is the MHJ--same with Dani of course.

It is our opinion that the boys in this MHJ unit were expressing pride in their formation or at that particular point of time wanted to identify themselves while at parade or marching, something like that.

Of course, they had the cap tally but for this flag, they cut two of those tallies down, sewn on both sides of the flag.

That is a Form 2 tally as opposed to the Form 1 ( MHJ Berlin for example) so the flag can also be dated from the time that the tally style changed in 1938 I believe.

Again, thanks for the information,

John

[John R.]

Form 1 and Form 2 MHJ tallies

Examples

[John R.]

In the Stuttgart example, the one diagonal is missing for some reason. It was there originally.

John

[wilhelm Saris]

The form of the lettering for the tally was in November 1938 changed into Gothic.
Hoya will never have had the Latin form. Hardly!

Maybe they indeed expressed their pride, but they were not allowed to carry the flag in public.
The flag will have been positioned within the buildings of the headquarters at Sulingen.
At one time (possibly in 1936) 73 (Diepholz) may have gotten a new flag. The old flag (as with
the shown patch) from then on was a sort of traditional flag (and so see above Sulingen).

With the flag-order as published March 21, 1935 the shown flag with green patch must have
become automatically a "Traditionsfahne", to be positioned in the so-called "Ehrenhalle".
If the flag was not ever officially consecrated then the flag lost its importance and was in fact
not even allowed to be positioned in the Ehrenhalle.

Who knows when the tally was sewn to this flag. One cannot know. Was it done later as 1938?
Or is it possible it even could be done post-war! The flag anyway is interesting, due to the
green patch used.

Nice tallies in post 10. The one for Memel with number 471 was official valid with the day May
1, 1939 when the numbers 471 through 474 were published for Memelland on May 12, 1939.

[John R.]

And this is a rare one from my collection:

[John R.]

The form of the lettering for the tally was in November 1938 changed into Gothic.

Excellent. John

[wilhelm Saris]

And this is a rare one from my collection:

Ostrowo was known as 667, which was Ostrowo-Kempen and instituted May 24, 1941. Headquarters were at Ostrowo.
Most of the given information is briefly mentioned in my "Handbook of the HJ".