Ball Hinge PAB - Missing link to Meybauer & Vienna Design IAB

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I am sure most of you saw the very interesting PAB that popped up on the forum in this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1029961

For several years now I have suspected that the "Vienna Design" IABs were made by Meybauer simply for the fact that there are Meybauer GABs with a similar crimped in ball hinge. This first connection is the most obvious one, using the unique ball hinge. We find this same type of ball hinge on the GAB in the Heukemes GAB book (Unknown Maker #4, page 242). We have previously linked these GABs to Meybauer since they all share the same obverse design.

So the ball hinge is an exact match to the ball hinge we find on the Vienna Design IAB. The catch is also an identical match, its crimped in place and is a "?" shape. Also notice the very similar, smooth appearance to the reverse of the Meybauer GAB and the Vienna IAB. Both are neatly semi-hollowed out and both badges appear to have the same type of finish.

[Thomas Durante]

Continuing to look at the variants of the Meybauer GABs & PABs and comparing them to the "Ball Hinge" Vienna Design IAB, we can see many other connections.

The same Vienna Design IAB can be found with a sheetmetal hinge in combination with a round wire catch on rectangular catchplate. Its GAB & PAB counterparts can be found with the exact same reverse setup. Both the GAB & PAB have already been previously connected to Meybauer (the PAB is the 7-wheeler, Third pattern as shown in the PAB book, page 476-477).

[Thomas Durante]

This type of Vienna Design IAB can also be found with a variant setup, which is a small barrel hinge. When comparing to the Meybauer-attributed GABs & PABs, we again find their counterparts with the same reverse setup. See DeBocks PAB book, late-war 7-wheeler page 482.

Not only are the barrel hinges exactly the same, but note the distinct dimple at the top of the pin where it nears the hinge, we see it on all 3 badges. Also of note is that both the IAB & the PAB have raised guide marks denoting the location for the hinge and catch.

[Thomas Durante]

And now the newly discovered Meybauer PAB with ball hinge. The ball hinge is idential to the ball hinge we see on the Meybauer GABs as well as the "Vienna Design-Deep Scoop" IABs, as well as the vertical oblong baseplate for it. Also note the identical "?"-shaped catch soldered to a small round plate, exactly what we see on the Meybauer GABs and "Vienna Design-Deep Scoop" IABs.

With all that evidence I think it could very well point to Meybauer switching their IAB design later in the war to the Vienna Design for their IABs.

Tom

[Job Lunter]

Hi Tom,

What a great find! I know you started a discussion on these IAB being Meybauer years ago. I talked about these with Sven last year. Its great to see we finally found that missing link to proof these are indeed all Meybauer.
I hope people stay on the hunt for new variants and information because of these posts. There is still so much out there.
Meybauer is one of the most intresting assault badge makers imo, so many setups, variants and dies.
Thank you for posting!

Regards, Job

[Hans N]

Great find Tom!

[Thomas Durante]

Thanks Job, I knew you would like this.

Now just to see if we can figure out the Meybauer timeline, as to when exactly did they switch to the Vienna Design-Deep Scoop? The PAB is on its way to me, so will post some more detailed pics of the hardware when I get it in hand.

Very exciting, love this time in our hobby when we have made some many discoveries but yet others are still out there to figure out and keep us busy.

Thanks

Tom

[Jelle M.]

The evidence is there and the similarities are striking, that's something that can't be denied. Great research and comparisons.
It gives the term 'Vienna design' another dimension with the direct Berlin connection Should we look more in the direction of Berlin instead of focussing on Vienna for determing makers for unknown awards?
A question worth thinking of.
The PAB has great detail and is in a fine condition, a rare find for sure. Would love to see a silver version of that badge, it must have an identical finish as the IAB & GAB i imagine. Beside the hardware, the ball hinge GAB & IAB are very close to each other with the same finish, even the reverse shows similarities with a smooth texture.
Great observation!

[Giel VW]

Hi Tom,

Aaahaaaaaa YES! Very good work and it really all fits into place with this ball hinge PAB (which I have never ever seen before). Something it's strange how "Obvious" it all feels when things like this get discovered.

Although it all nicely fits together we still have to bear in mind that we connected this late war badge to Meybauer only because of the obverse design that was simular to the earlier designs. The question we always have to keep in mind is if this design was actually Meybauer. Although the fact that I'm also very positive that it IS Meybauer, I'm missing an L/13 marked one or a packaged one to make this all waterproof once and for all.

You got the first 2020 prize for me Tom

[Job Lunter]

It gives the term 'Vienna design' another dimension with the direct Berlin connection Should we look more in the direction of Berlin instead of focussing on Vienna for determing makers for unknown awards?
A question worth thinking of.

Good point Jelle. All though this ''Vienna design'' is no exception, the L/21 GAB and Heer flak are other examples of a ''Vienna designs'' that made it out of the area. Pforzheim connection as well as a Berlin connection. Which brings us back to Giel his point on who made made the designs.

[vonStubben]

Perfect example of how jumping to conclusions of an item being "fake" so quickly can be so far off base. I'm very pleased with this outcome.

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi guys

Perfect example of how jumping to conclusions of an item being "fake" so quickly can be so far off base. I'm very pleased with this outcome.

IMO it is a bit early to nail the lid on the coffin. It isn't quite 'ironclad' as yet, as mentioned below, though Tom's well presented hypothesis is looking pretty good so far..

Giel:
Although it all nicely fits together we still have to bear in mind that we connected this late war badge to Meybauer only because of the obverse design that was simular to the earlier designs.

Are there any other non scooped Meybauer PAB's out there to compare? It isn't important what type/style of hardware is present.

[Thomas Durante]

Perfect example of how jumping to conclusions of an item being "fake" so quickly can be so far off base. I'm very pleased with this outcome.

Hi guys, thanks for all the great replies, I appreciate it.

Chuck, luckily the obverse design was one we recognized, and the reverse setups was also recognized for what it was, or it would be tempting to call a never-seen before variant a fake. A little bit of caution is good, but cannot fault anyone as there are plenty of good fakes floating around.

Regarding the link to the Vienna Design - Deep Scoop IAB, it is tempting to think that the design originated in Vienna because most Vienna makers used it. However as Jelle correctly points out, its possible that the "vienna design" originated in Berlin or Pforzheim, especially when you look at badges other than IABs. Kriegsmarine badges for instance are a good area to look at. There are no Vienna makers active during the tombak production period for the Kriegsmarine minesweeper. It was only with the switch to zink came into play, did the vienna makers get involved (Souval, Hobacher, F&B, etc.). F&B isn't a Vienna Maker, but we know they used the same design on their GABs. When these makers got involved, they all used the "Juncker" minesweeper design. Wouldn't that suggest that the "vienna design" minesweeper actually originated in Berlin? Maybe not with Juncker, but maybe another Berlin firm, possibly Meybauer? Another possibility is Wissmann in Pforzheim, I believe Norm has postulated this before because all the Pforzheim makers minesweepers share the same design as the Vienna makers.

When you look at PABs, we can see many of the designs can be traced back to Meybauer. Schickle, P&Ls, Frank & Reifs and the Vienna Design PABs design are all simplified versions of the Meybauer design. So as far as PABs goes, it appears that all these PAB designs came from Meybauer originally, or were made by someone using the Meybauer PAB as the model (possibly Wissmann). To me this opens up the possibility of Meybauer adopting the Vienna design later in the war.

Tom

[vonStubben]

Hi guys, thanks for all the great replies, I appreciate it.

Chuck, luckily the obverse design was one we recognized, and the reverse setups was also recognized for what it was, or it would be tempting to call a never-seen before variant a fake. A little bit of caution is good, but cannot fault anyone as there are plenty of good fakes floating around.

Regarding the link to the Vienna Design - Deep Scoop IAB, it is tempting to think that the design originated in Vienna because most Vienna makers used it. However as Jelle correctly points out, its possible that the "vienna design" originated in Berlin or Pforzheim, especially when you look at badges other than IABs. Kriegsmarine badges for instance are a good area to look at. There are no Vienna makers active during the tombak production period for the Kriegsmarine minesweeper. It was only with the switch to zink came into play, did the vienna makers get involved (Souval, Hobacher, F&B, etc.). F&B isn't a Vienna Maker, but we know they used the same design on their GABs. When these makers got involved, they all used the "Juncker" minesweeper design. Wouldn't that suggest that the "vienna design" minesweeper actually originated in Berlin? Maybe not with Juncker, but maybe another Berlin firm, possibly Meybauer? Another possibility is Wissmann in Pforzheim, I believe Norm has postulated this before because all the Pforzheim makers minesweepers share the same design as the Vienna makers.

When you look at PABs, we can see many of the designs can be traced back to Meybauer. Schickle, P&Ls, Frank & Reifs and the Vienna Design PABs design are all simplified versions of the Meybauer design. So as far as PABs goes, it appears that all these PAB designs came from Meybauer originally, or were made by someone using the Meybauer PAB as the model (possibly Wissmann). To me this opens up the possibility of Meybauer adopting the Vienna design later in the war.

Tom

Tom,

I made my earlier statement based on my having acquired a bronze PAB identical to the one in question which I purchased from a veteran in the late 1980's along with his many bring backs. It is one of the many badges I later sold on to another collector who would write a reference book on badges in the early 90's. He then sold it on himself. Have I been burnt buying from veterans in the past?..... yes, at least once, but the badge I'm referring to having once owned I never doubted.