S&l pab

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

A friend of mine sent me this badge to authenticate, thought the answer might interest our members. The first red flag is the thick silver finish in pristine condition. Its not the correct finish S&L used and its condition is odd for a late war zinker. The hardware is another red flag in particular the hinge and pin, that doesn't have the correct tool marks (wartime nor postwar S&L marks). It is a common cast fake unfortunately.

Tom

[Hans N]

Thanks for posting Tom! This one will certainly fool many.

[Jelle M.]

The obverse detail is weak and not crisp, a poor casting.
Another red flag is the wrong basemetal of the badge.
No zinc showing and the absence of the typical bubbling are immediate red flags.

[Chet Sowersby]

These aren't new to the collecting scene. I made a bad call on one right here on the forum over two years ago.

Chet

[Tony Bologna]

I would buy it if I quickly looked at it, but seeing the closeups reveals problems

[Daniel.S]

Hello Guys.

Its was (i guess now is back) my badge.

Its 60 mm high , 41,98 mm wide and weighs 31.89gr.

Its 100% fake badge?

[Hasse.M]

Height, width and weight is spot on. Early zinc S&L, first set of pictures with strong flash ”washed” away alot of the details and indeed the silver finish looked odd.
Im very interested how this badge will be received now.

[greggf]

Height, width and weight is spot on. Early zinc S&L, first set of pictures with strong flash ”washed” away alot of the details and indeed the silver finish looked odd.
Im very interested how this badge will be received now.

Hmmm...the 4th image that Thomas originally posted shows what looks like a raised ridge running along the outer edge. This would suggest mold cast - the ridge being where the two halves of the mold meet. Of course, it could just be an artifact of the photo.
Gregg

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

This badge is 100% fake, no doubts about it. The dimensions are correct because it is not a typical casting like we have seen in the past. Staegemeir fakes are not cast, so they are not smaller. On the contrary, they are usually a little larger. More importantly are the types of materials he uses for the base metal of the fake, as well as the hardware and finish. All of these features are red flags that we see on this fake, especially when you sit it next to an original S&L PAB, the differences become much more apparent.

Tom

[Hasse.M]

Many thanks Tom!

[greggf]

Very interesting Tom. Apologies if this is well known, but how are Staegemeir fakes like the PAB above made? Are they die struck?

[Mike Kenny]

The last pic in post#1 imo clearly shows a casting seam is present in the recess of the wreath tie. That sort of feature (edge protrusion) imo can not physically be generated on a die struck or die trimmed badge.

Regards
Mike

[greggf]

The last pic in post#1 imo clearly shows a casting seam is present in the recess of the wreath tie. That sort of feature (edge protrusion) imo can not physically be generated on a die struck or die trimmed badge.

Regards
Mike

That is exactly the spot that caught my eye.

[Thomas Durante]

Very interesting Tom. Apologies if this is well known, but how are Staegemeir fakes like the PAB above made? Are they die struck?

Its the million dollar question Greg. I am quite certain they aren't die struck and I also don't think they are die cast in the traditional sense because his badges have the correct dimensions. Usually when you cast something the dimensions get a little smaller, so he isn't casting them in the traditional sense.

I suspect his is using some high tech scanner to scan every nook and cranny of an original badge. This scan goes into a computer where we can bump up the size a tiny bit, then that program cuts out a mold (like from a 3d printer or similar). Its from this mold that he makes his fakes, and bumping up the size offsets the shrinkage you normally see with a traditional casting.

So in essence, they are cast but the mold he uses is a bigger size so the end product is the same size as an original. That is why the dimensions of his fakes are correct (or sometimes bigger than originals!), and why you also see casting seams like what Mike is circling in the above picture.

Tom

[sniper11]

Very informative post with photos and Tom's explanation.There's always something new to learn in this hobby.

Troy