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    #16
    Thanks Frank - great work, as always! Just to play Devil's advocate, why are these not real from a die that developed a flaw?
    Marc
    I knew these questions would arise and I cannot blame you, very hard to follow this from pics alone. But nevertheless, the answer:

    1) the fakes are too small when compared with an original hollow BH Mayer (or Frank & Reif)

    2) the catch is slightly wrong

    3) the Y is only present on these new, questionable ones, you cannot find the Y on about 30 BH Mayers (and another 40 to 50 Frank & Reifs) in my picture files.

    4) The ones that showed up so far did so in bad context

    5) base metal is wrong
    Cheers, Frank

    Comment

      #17
      Yes, the context is very bad. That is why I jumped on these and posted them.
      Marc

      Comment

        #18
        Problem with this type of fakes is that the "Y" Frank pointed out in fact is the only thing you will have to go on when buying from pictures. All the other arguments are very valid but you only will be able to check them once you hold (and payed for) the badge.

        How long will it take before collectors are going to convince themselfs that they are holding the real thing and that we don't know what we're talking about. Give it another 10 years

        KR
        Philippe

        Comment

          #19
          Originally posted by Philippe DB
          Problem with this type of fakes is that the "Y" Frank pointed out in fact is the only thing you will have to go on when buying from pictures. All the other arguments are very valid but you only will be able to check them once you hold (and payed for) the badge.

          How long will it take before collectors are going to convince themselfs that they are holding the real thing and that we don't know what we're talking about. Give it another 10 years

          KR
          Philippe
          Philippe,<o =""></o>

          I just wish that finally someone could invent “Fakes detector”!<o =""></o>

          Comment

            #20
            Phillipe,

            I STRONGLY disagree with you. It will not take 10 years. It will happen today. Somewhere there will be collectors or dealers who will say, "Those idiots on WAF. They make fakes of real badges!" I have heard it all too often...

            Marc

            Comment

              #21
              Originally posted by Flak88
              Phillipe,

              I STRONGLY disagree with you. It will not take 10 years. It will happen today. Somewhere there will be collectors or dealers who will say, "Those idiots on WAF. They make fakes of real badges!" I have heard it all too often...

              Marc
              In some places they already say that. I'm sure they all have outstanding collections too.
              Don
              pseudo-expert

              Comment

                #22
                A sad day for the collector. My retirment in this hobby is ever more imminent. I wonder who will be left in 30 years to purchase the collections containing these fakes.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Spotted One Already!!!

                  Hey Guys, I just saw a cut-out grass Porsche exact to the one posted at the local show here in the Chicago area.There was only one Dealer that had this badge.I must say after holding it was some-what suspect,but the possibility of actually getting my hands on one,had me wondering if it was actually a good one!!!It was hard to put down,but i just did not feel good about it.(I did not see this thread until after attending the show),so I must actually be absorbing all of the knowledge gained thru this forum. .So,anyway they are out there already as stated!! Ron

                  Comment

                    #24
                    The reason they don't make them "perfect" is because it will kill the hobby. As long as we think we have a chance to acquire original items we will collect. The day we realize we cannot tell the difference we will quit. They are trying to achieve a symbiotic relationship with us, the collecting community. As their "host" if they kill us they die too. Sick, isn't it?
                    Don
                    pseudo-expert

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Originally posted by ddoering
                      The reason they don't make them "perfect" is because it will kill the hobby. As long as we think we have a chance to acquire original items we will collect. The day we realize we cannot tell the difference we will quit. They are trying to achieve a symbiotic relationship with us, the collecting community. As their "host" if they kill us they die too. Sick, isn't it?
                      Don
                      Don,

                      As sick as it may sound, you maybe actually 100% correct…this is a great theory! In my opinion, today, the fake makers have tools in place to create a perfect fake, which could be beyond point of doubt for everyone. However, as Frank said: “…it is amazing how these idiots still always get *something* wrong…”. Maybe they are not that stupid after all…

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Hello all,

                        The thing that keeps the fakers going is that 99% of collectors can't be bothered to do their research. They see something at a show or on an auction site and just have to have it, once that point is passed its too late, the item is out of the fakers hands, replaced by the collectors money.

                        There is a list of things that the fakers will have to 'get right' before coming up with a perfect copy but as they tick each of these off the list the level of knowledge a collector must have before deciding whether or not to make a purchase increases dramatically.

                        I'm new to this field and have been avidly reading current and past posts to try to get the confidence to buy my first badges. I'm amazed at the level of knowledge the contributors here have but I know that the first time I part with my hard earned readies, even with the (distant) help of you all I'll probably buy a wrong 'un and it will be that mistake that hopefully will prevent me from doing it again.

                        Dispiriting isn't it?

                        Happy collecting, Peter

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Originally posted by ddoering
                          The reason they don't make them "perfect" is because it will kill the hobby. As long as we think we have a chance to acquire original items we will collect. The day we realize we cannot tell the difference we will quit. They are trying to achieve a symbiotic relationship with us, the collecting community. As their "host" if they kill us they die too. Sick, isn't it?
                          Don
                          IMO they don't make mistakes on purpose, the fakers may very well be collectors that is after not only the mony but the faschinating thought of making THE PERFECT copy - who isn't? Imagine you could make a RK that could fool the pros - I think they strive for that victory - and who says they haven't already achieved this in some areas? A fake that can't be recognized is not a fake (ofcourse it is but you know what I mean). Makes me think of the film "Return of the bodysnatchers".

                          Thanks guys for comabtting these "medalsnatchers"

                          Cheers Thomas

                          Comment

                            #28
                            With so many collectors represented on this forum does not someone at least know something of from whom, or at least from where the latest generation of fakes came from? Could they not somehow be traced? For example, who were these purchased from, where, and when? Where did the source selling them get them from ect...

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Hi Edward,

                              We know some of the distributors, but not the exact origin. It might very well be the case that the one distibutor who always seesm to have them first and in variation and quantity might be the brain behind this, ordering them in some country where production is cheap and efficient. IMO knowing the origin is not truely interesting, because it will be just some guy in some country, possibly not even with bad intentions, just making a buck. The "brain" behind this is the interesting one. I assume that the brain reads these forums and is a collector himself.
                              Cheers, Frank

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Hello Frank,

                                Agreed, that it may be a highly knowledgable collector is a possibilty. Could involve more than one. Also there is the possibility of it being a collaboration between both a very knowledgable collector and dealer. Identifying who the distributors (sellers) are and from whom they received these badges is the next logical step.

                                Regards

                                Comment

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