Vaulted Silver FLL CCC

[Marc Garlasco]

This beauty just came today. I am really stunned at the silvering. The lamp-light is inadequate to do it justice, so I took these at ASA 400 with no flash:





And to show the details:

[Calvin Hall]

That is very silver! Nice!

Calvin

[mvm71]

Super CCC Marc!!!


Where did you get it?

Thanks for showing us,
Mike

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Marc,

This is the first FLL I have seen with this type of silver plating. FLL were typically finished with a silver wash, not a high quality plating such as this. Its my opinion that this could possibly be a refinished clasp. Along with the texture, the finish is all over the pin, hinge and catch, typical sign of a refinished job. The backplate doesn't have this finish on it, but on FLLs, these plates come out very easily because of the crappy crimping, typical on all FLLs. The backplate could easily have been removed, the clasp refinished an then refitted back into place. It even looks as if it was double crimped in with a second set of crimps to hold the plate in better, a first for me on an FLL clasp.

I do however like the bubbling on the reverse. This could be faked as well, but yours looks pretty believable. I think taken in context with the above mentioned items, I would be suspicious of this baby.

Tom D.

[Marc Garlasco]

Tom,

Well, we will have to ask Detlev then - I got this from him. I can send him an e-mail.

Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

All,
Detlev does not share Tom's concerns regarding this CCC. I do note the obverse leaf close-up has some tiny bubbles on it, so i do not think it was plating. Does anyone else have any comments?
Regards,
Marc

[mgidhagen]

Back plate...

My thoughts are the following:
To me it looks like the back plate has been removed and then reinserted after the silver (re)finishing, as this is obvious comparing the indentions made by the tools to fasten the back plate to the ones usually found on an FLL CCC of this type (see pic). The reference clasps are one silver (top) and one bronze (bottom) grade ccc. Also visible is the "normal" colouring of the hinge and catch, i.e., brass colour. However, the refinishing might have been done pre-45 to "individually" upgrade a bronze clasp - but that is of course impossible to tell for sure...
Just my two cents'...
Best,
Mike G

[Thomas Durante]

Marc, thanks for the comments from Detlev.

Mike, thanks for your very useful comparison. If you notice on both of Mike's clasps, the finish is a bronze/silver wash as opposed to a silver plating. The wash is typical of a later war badge and consistant with what has been seen in the past. This forum has proven that new things pop up every day and old myths broken, but FLLs are the most common CCC, next to AGMuKs, so there are plenty to compare to. Also notice that the hinge, catch and pin are not finished on Mike's examples. I believe this was the common practice for FLL CCCs (attachments made AFTER finishing).


The plating on Marc's clasp is similar to another clasp I ran into a few weeks ago. While not the same, the finish on the reverse pic of Marc's looks very similar to this other clasp, which I am 99% sure of a replating job.

A question... would bubbling still not happen on a plated clasp vs. one with a wash type finish? Oxidation of zink would still occur regardless of finish.

Anyone else? Frank, Philippe???

Tom D.

[Marc Garlasco]

All,

This is a REALLY great discussion! EXACTLY what I love about this forum. SO I was thinking about the FLL and said to myself I had seen one before somewhere that had a silver catch/hinge set-up. And I remembered! Here is one on Gailen's site for comparisson (also vaulted) - and keep the comments coming:

[Gene]

My silver FLL example, front

[Gene]

Reverse

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Mark,

Just got home and checked my silver FLL. Mine does not have too much finish left on it, but there is finish on the solder of the hinge and the catch. Mine was definately finished after the attachments were put on. Typically, in most cases, FLLs have the finish applied before the hardware was attached, but there are pieces that were finished after the hardware was installed. So, my earlier statement is not correct per se. I am still of the opinion that finish on the hardware is still cause for suspicion on any clasp, but should be taken into account along with all other aspects (base material, backplate cimpring, dimensions, hardware, etc.). Gailen's example is one that was finished last, but notice the type of silver finish, its a wash. Also Gene's has a silver wash. I have just not run into a clasp with a plating that I thought was original to the badge.


Another thought.....If a clasp that had bubbling to its original, typical wash finish, was refinished in a plating type of finish, the bubbling would still be present and could be seen. This would not be bubbling of the new finish, but just a reflection of the bubbling underneath this new layer of finish. If this finish is a thin enough plating to still show the contours of the FLL marking and the name, it would definately reflect the bubbling.

Any of the "big guns" care to weight in??

Tom D.

[Don D.]

Could it be that FLL changed construction procedures at some point? Perhaps they did it to save time, eliminate a step etc... or maybe it was due to materials?
Don

[Frank Heukemes]

An uncommonly good silver plating on a FLL silver CCC, but somehow, I like it. Looks very believable, not like one of those typical refinish jobs.

[Philippe DB]

HI Tom,


I saw detlev offering two of these CCC two weeks ago, both in exceptional good condition for this maker. Although I admit that judging an original finish form pics is one of the most difficult things to do (hé sometimes I have difficulties making up my mind when I'm holding the badge)

I would tend to belief that the finish on Marc's badge is indeed the original finish. If I learned one thing from studying PAB's than this probably would be that although 9 out of 10 badges from 1 specific maker share the same finish there will always be that exception to the rule that will feature a completely different finish. Taken in to account how long the war lasted IMO it's wrong to think that in all these years manufactures never changed the type of finish they applied on their badges.

Here is a picture of my FLL which also features the painted set-up.

KR
Philippe