The eagle has landed, finally - Juncker Heer Para

[Waffenreich]

Ok, contrary to my feelings in my earlier post at 7:52, reality may be setting in.

Jeff, I did take another look at the hinge and it does not have the striations common to original Juncker hinge stock. I am not convinced that all hinge stock would be extruded from the same machine, thus bearing the same striations and/or tooling characteristics, but there is enough evidence here among Juncker hinges that they bear these traits.

The wreath does show evidence of filing around the inner edge, but what I thought to be the bubbling associated with zink badges is more just damage to the gold finish that has given it a raised look in many areas.

I do appreciate the comments and conviction of those who have replied here, and if Tom would be kind enough to drop the gavel on this one we'll call it case closed and I'll set him free. Then the quest goes on

Thanks again and best regards!

vr

Bob

[Tony Bologna]

Can you PM me the contact information of the person who you are sending this back to? I would like to buy it off of them.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

A nicely made fake for me as well. The devil is always in the details, you have to look at the ENTIRE badge in making a determination on originality. Well made cast fakes will pick up all of the fine little details we look for on original badges, so you cannot just look at the obverse and say "it matches the blobs on the obverse 100% to the book so it must be real". You have to look at that stuff, in conjunction with the reverse. The pin was not magnetic, so that is a first red flag. Also, the rivets aren't correct, so that is another red flag. The finish doesn't match originals, another red flag. The hinge look sloppy, another red flag. When you see several red flags popping up, then you know you have a problem on a badge. One or even two differences might be acceptable (none of us has seen everything!), but when you have 3 or more red flags compared to the book, then you really need to sit back and study the badge HARD to see what is going on. When you do that, you will see that there are more differences then you first though (i.e., soft details compared with originals, no striation on the hinge, non-textbook finishing details, casting marks, dimensions might be smaller, etc.).

Fakes are very, very well done these days. Many badges will look good at first glance, and its easy to say one looks "identical" to the examples shown in a book. However, when you start noticing red flags, like a non-magnetic pin or weird rivets, etc., then you should take pause and really study the badge in greater detail. Books aren't always 100% right, but they are an excellent guide to what is right and what is wrong. They are right many more times they are wrong, so when you see something that isn't "textbook", then you really need to give it a greater amount of attention and study.

Tom

[Waffenreich]

Thanks for the reply Tom, and to Giel and Jeff as well who pointed out similar characteristics.

This was a good learning experience and in the end I think those delving into these dangerous waters may gain something from reading this Thread as it cautions us from getting too wrapped-up in one or two attributes vs. seeing an item in total.

Tony - I'm sending you a PM.

Thanks again to all and I'm glad we were able to keep the discussion civil

vr

Bob

[Gary Symonds]

Not the same hinge. There are tool marks on Juncker hinges from the machining process that are not present on this badge. Do you think the finish on this badge looks like a finish that the Juncker factory applied? I don't. Where is the hand filing of the wreath. I could go on and on. This is not one I would want to spend my hard earned euros on.

Jeff, could you post some links that show the tool marks on Juncker hinges that I assume are universal for all Juncker badges, not just the Army badges.

I looked at the hinge in the badge subject to discussion and I could not see any machining marks.

Would be quite helpful in indentifying original Juncker hardware to see what is missing in this badge.

[John T]

note the differences

[John T]

Bob, I can point out an obvious difference for one, look at the wider gap between the main body and the tail feather. Yes there were many variations and we were not around then but this one is just wrong and was probably done a while ago. The fakes that they are making today are probably nearly perfect.

[John T]

this:

[Waffenreich]

Gary,

Here's an example courtesy of Martin (Aurora68) in a Thread he started showing the striations that have been referenced by many here as indicative of original Juncker short barrel hinges. If you do a search of Juncker Army Para and look at those of this pattern deemed to be original you'll see this characteristic. You can find it on other Juncker badges using this type of hinge. Tom also shows a clear pic of this on pg. 461 of his book.

Here's also a link to a Thread showing an identical pattern of fake to the badge I posted to start this Thread. Sadly when I did my initial search I missed this one http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...cker+army+para

John,

I see what you mean and that is a common trait in the badge shown in the link.

vr

Bob

[Gary Symonds]

Waffenreich, thanks for the help.

I see the striations.

You said these existed on short barrel hinges.

What about longer barrel hinges?

Any pictures of these?

[Waffenreich]

You're welcome Gary.

Regarding the long barrel hinges, I think you'll get a more qualified answer from some of the other guys here as I'm just delving into these and my first experience was not very successful - save for the knowledge I gained from it.

Try doing a search using Juncker Army Para and look at the different hinge characteristics. You'll start to see common traits.

Good luck.