Sniper

[tgn]

Hi,
I thank all who have said your opinion!
It's a 50/50 chancse that's real the piece or not!
I will keep the piece
With the hope that we will find it is an original piece.
Kurt

Kurt,
I have the same patch in my collection and I keep it for the same reason you stated.

Tom

[Antonio Scapini]

I believe the U.S. Army handbook on German Forces, TME 38 450? has a color drawing of the patch. I'll have to go check. Jim

It has Jim, but the "naysayers" say americans simply copied the badge... From where no one knows (if it was never made!) and with a completely non sense use (since it is an handbook for soldiers).
Even the official award ceremony where Himmler awarded the snipers is considered by them only as propaganda.

[longislandercjv]

Hi Kurt,

Well, it may make you happy to hear this, but unfortunately there's no proof (yet) to support it. Antonio has correctly stated "IMO", meaning "in his opinion", but as discussed in detail in the other thread, this is a leap of faith with no solid evidence to date.

Without a doubt, after the award was announced in November 1944, there were awards on paper, but whether any were actually produced prior to May, 1945 remains unknown -- maybe yes maybe no. To this day, the only piece with any unsullied provenance is the "Type 1" Heinrich Franken patch which appeared in Hormann's book in the 1980's. And to date, only a single low-resolution heavily watermarked period photo of a patch in wear (with a date on the back prior to the institution of the badge).

The "Type 2" Grade 1 patch like yours on the Feldgrau backing is much more common than the Type 1 and is always mint and unworn. It doesn't help that the exact same thread pattern as the Type 2 appears on coarse backing with no border whatsoever, contrary to the official design (again described in that linked thread and also here).

In the end, the collector is left to wonder whether these unworn patches were made in 1945, 1955 or 1985 for the veteran and/or collector market. And IMO, the outlandish prices asked on various vendor sites are wishful thanking, hoping to catch a big fish with deep pockets.

Best regards,
---Norm

Also, to repeat a previous discussion point, the Marine-Frontspange (Navy front clasp) was announced the same month as the Sniper badge (November 1944), and despite being awarded on paper in greater numbers than Sniper awards, never made it into production. And despite that, there are ship-made examples with provenance and in period photos to fill the gap.

None of that type of evidence exists for the Sniper patch in the same time period.

Having said that, it could be because of stigma -- a soldier (especially a draftee) is more likely to advertise an award for surviving numerous combat missions than one for the number of people he shot.

Best regards,
---Norm

As I 've said in numerous posts, without ironclad proof of it's wartime issue,
will not add one to the collection.
All is not lost, however; The wartime issue of METZ 1944 cuffband was not confirmed until photos were found.
There's always a chance that the ironclad provenance will turn it.
Until then, I don't (won't) own one.
I agree 100% with Norm!!

[Norm F]

I believe the U.S. Army handbook on German Forces, TME 38 450? has a color drawing of the patch. I'll have to go check. Jim

Yes indeed, here's the drawing of the sniper patch in the "Handbook on German Military Forces" published in Washington on March 15, 1945.

And here are the images from the September and October 1944 issues of "Deutsche Uniformen-Zeitschrift". By October 1944, the "final authorized design" was being shown in publications, but only as a line drawing, never a photo. This was true also for the image in January, 1945 when the award was extended to Navy personnel - just a line drawing, despite the fact that every other Kriegsmarine award announcement in that journal was followed by a photograph of the actual award.

No one can say that the badge design wasn't finalized (it was) and no one can say with authority that it was never produced in wartime -- only that there's still no unequivocal proof that it was produced nor that the type being discussed in this thread (the most commonly posted type) was produced during the war.

Best regards,
---Norm

[101combatvet]

I've got this badge.
Can you please tell me is the badge is original?
Thanks for your help!

Kurt

If you find out it's a repro and want to sell it I'll Fedex you a $20.00 bill.

[Willi Z.]

I certainly think sniper badges were manufactured, and some issued. I have too many references in German to not believe in them. I do not, however, believe in any of the Feldgrau examples, such as the one presented. I used to think some of those were original, but now I only think (based on discussions with others) the mouse gray examples are original. A couple more just turned up in a small auction in Germany.

[Norm F]

It's a 50/50 chance that's real the piece or not!

Kurt

This is a completely false statement unfortunately. There's certainly a chance that Sniper patches were produced in wartime -- the three strongest pieces of evidence being the January 1945 Himmler presentation photo (without showing the patch), the possible photo in wear (which remains to be verified) and the Heinrich Franken patch with provenance of sorts.

But none of that supports the claim that the "Type 2" patch being discussed here is wartime-produced, so a "50/50 chance" is just wishful thinking.

For reference, here are some comparison images of the "Type 1" (with provenance of sorts but only a single example) on the left and the "Type 2" (without provenance) on the right. In the centre is the wartime line drawing in the first comparison image, and a blow-up of the fuzzy image of a possible patch in wear in the second comparison image.

It's a shame that WAF member "Sniper1944" never felt like posting a high resolution scan of his photo for discussion but that's all we have to work with. It's hard to draw any firm conclusions from these images, but for what it's worth, the proportions of the "Type 1" patch with it's narrower neck and wider angle on the left between the oakleaf and neck, are closer to the wartime images than the "Type 2".

... the "naysayers" say americans simply copied the badge...

I hadn't heard this theory before. My doubts are based upon close observation of the evidence (or lack thereof) to date.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

One more comparison, this time to the (originally classified) March 1945 U.S. Military publication.

[tystgaard]

Sniper Badge

These badges have been discussed for many years. There most be somebody that have discussed them with veterans?. Sepp Allerberger wrote a book about his time as a sniper. Was no one in contact with him? If I remember correct, there was sold a group with a badge that came from his estate.

There might even be some German snipers or other vets that could remember something alive today. If some of the forum members are in contact with
German vet groups, could ask. Or maybe even advertise in a German newspaper for info on these. It is a interesting badge, and a shame if the history of these badges are lost to time. But yes WW2 are still a sensitive subject in Germany... I know, and a controversial badge with a dark history. A badge that honor a soldiers kills.

BR
Nicolai

[Thomas Durante]

Even the official award ceremony where Himmler awarded the snipers is considered by them only as propaganda.

Unfortunately, the picture of the award ceremony doesn't show the Sniper Badge. For all we know, Himmler was handing out the document for the sniper badge, to be given at a later date. Its strange that the propoganda machine of the 3rd Reich would not capture a new badge being issued, given to the troops for the first time; especially when presided over by Himmler himself. Compare that with the multiple pictures we have of the award ceremonies for the Heer CCC in Gold, which were done around the same time period (late 1944, early 1945).

Like the Sniper badge, the LW CCC was instituted in late 1944 and there was an award ceremony for the version in gold conducted in January 1945. This was presided over by Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering himself and he was to award this new decoration to 6 Luftwaffe soldiers. However, according to Werner Endres (one of the recipients), there were no LW CCCs to be had and so the regular Army version was handed out. Goering was pissed and promised that when the LW CCC was available he would make sure the recipients received it. Endres said by the end of the war he still hadn't seen or been awarded the LW CCC. This is direct from the vet himself.

Tom

[djpool]

It has Jim, but the "naysayers" say americans simply copied the badge... From where no one knows (if it was never made!) and with a completely non sense use (since it is an handbook for soldiers).
Even the official award ceremony where Himmler awarded the snipers is considered by them only as propaganda.

Hi Antonio,

I think the evidence leans more in th direction it was produced, but still no concrete proof. But yet there is more support for the ski jager patch which has almost no evidence to back it up. I do own a bevo ski jager to keep things above board. Personally I believe they were made but never distributed in large numbers. The large number of variations out there bothers me,but since I'll never afford one I don't get too worked up over them. Jim

Ps I always wondered why anybody would wear a patch that shows they were a sniper! I know snipers have an aura around them these days but it certainly wasn't a feeling held by any combatants on the other end of the rifle. Might as well of wore a sign that said shoot me. Best I can tell they were as popular as flame thrower operators.

[Antonio Scapini]

Unfortunately, the picture of the award ceremony doesn't show the Sniper Badge. For all we know, Himmler was handing out the document for the sniper badge, to be given at a later date.

Never heard about that. Any source that confirm Himmler was Handling the doc instead the badge itself?

Like the Sniper badge, the LW CCC was instituted in late 1944 and there was an award ceremony for the version in gold conducted in January 1945. This was presided over by Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering himself and he was to award this new decoration to 6 Luftwaffe soldiers. However, according to Werner Endres (one of the recipients), there were no LW CCCs to be had and so the regular Army version was handed out. Goering was pissed and promised that when the LW CCC was available he would make sure the recipients received it. Endres said by the end of the war he still hadn't seen or been awarded the LW CCC. This is direct from the vet himself.

Tom

Any picture of this ceremony?

Last thing: we have wartime templates for the production of the badge, and we must remember this is a cloth badge not a metal one.
Metz cufftitle was too a late war introduction, produced and awarded (from different makers!), and it is cloth.
Cloth production was easier and very fast, no need great efforts, but a simply sewing machine.

Strange enough that for this badge there are also various soldiers drawings like this if this never saw the light...

Anyway we know each one see what he wants to see. IMO evidences are really a lot for a "never existed badge". Nor for the LW CCC, nor for other late war and never produced badges exist a lot of supporting proofs like for the sniper patch.

- Picture
- Vet published group in book
- Template
- American handbook
- Award ceremony picture
- Drawings
- Documents
- 2 tunics (one with patch hand sewn and one machine sewn)

[Uncle Kurt]

A good example for me is always the parachute infantry
As a cloth badge! The "Brandenburg" Batl. Was founded in the late summer.
And yet there are two if not three types. at this time!

I find the example of the uniform jacket by Antonio Scapini very good
There it was the badge of type 2 on it before made off.

[Norm F]

I find the example of the uniform jacket by Antonio Scapini very good
There it was the badge of type 2 on it before made off.

The tunic is interesting but unfortunately completely inconclusive. The photos are limited in resolution and size but as they are shown, the colour of the tunic under the removed patch is the same as the surrounding area. And of course, the patch was sewn in the wrong location, as defined by regulations. Of course one could always assume it was sewn on wrong and then stored outside of sunlight and not worn or washed in the intervening decades, but in the end, there's simply no way of knowing if that patch was sewn on pre-war or post-war.

On a "gut feeling" level, I too wouldn't be surprised if Sniper patches were manufactured prior to the end of the war, but what soft evidence exists so far points only to the "Type 1" patch if any. In the absence of period photos of a "Type 2" patch, that particular variant (which is by far the most commonly encountered patch) will always be suspect.

In fact, the "wartime template" shown by Antonio in post #27, if taken at face value, clearly matches neither the "Type 1" nor the "Type 2'.

Best regards,
---Norm

[jmcm]

A sniper patch on your sleeve would be like a bulls eye on your forehead.