Why...

[Luftm40]

...is there so much dishonesty in the area of III Reich collectibles? I mean, there is a certain amount of dishonesty in all collecting fields, but III Reich is over the top and always has been. I've been collecting since the early/mid 70s. One of my first experiences was saving up to buy a German Helmet at my hometown's yearly militaria show. I wanted one in the worst way. Well, I ended up w/ a Spanish German "style" helmet that the dealer swore was original...and this was back when real German helmets were a dime a dozen. This guy thought nothing of ripping off a 12 year old kid. Maybe that was a good thing in retrospect, because I learned the score early. I bring this up because I went to a local show this weekend...something I rarely do, and was struck by the amount of bald-faced thievery taking place. It was actually sort of sickening. In some cases dealers were selling fakes to people that were obviously long time customers and "friends" My theory is that III Reich stuff has always been sort of a fringe, almost socially unacceptable field of collecting. As such, in the early days it attracted a legion of disreputable dealers, authors and collectors (a handfull of damn good ones too...don't get me wrong). My parents used to be antiquers, and we would occasionally go to collectibles shows. I remember the stamp and rock collector tables being populated with guys in cardigans and hush puppies, while I was waiting in line to look at German stuff w/ bikers and guys that looked like they had just finished doing hard time. This tradition of dishonesty has carried on thru the years. That's what it is now...a tradition. Thievery is expected behavior. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[François SAEZ]

I am only speaking about France, but I am sure it can extend to other countries - the main issue here is that only your knowledge could help you - I mean if you are screwed, you only have 2 possibilities - you keep what you have and say nothing OR you pay a visit to the seller.
There is NO LEGAL way to protect yourself, and SELLERS (including dealers) know that, so it is so easy for them - imagine going to the Police or to try Justice " See sir, I am a nazi collector and I was screwed by xxx) - you are the one, in France, who will go to jail - and if not, how can you proove to a non collector that what you bought is not original seeing the level of certain fakes, it could be hard - especially, because, when you buy, it is because you think it is original and when you learn it is a fake it is often by showing it around, so we turn back to the seller saying " I was told by friend that you sold me a fake"

Additional point is WE want (all)- and that is in the unconscious, to buy something which is going to make us dream - same attraction than gambling ... you want to dream - What could I buy if I win the loto? What could it be to own a SS visor cap ............ WE are all children here, and sellers just tell us what we want to hear - I works better to sell a helmet saying, Normandy camouflage, vet bring back, rare vulcanised helmet than the truth:Plastic helmet, painted last week in Austria.
If you want to sell to addicts, you tell them what they want to hear, ......... so yes dishonesty is all around - but people without brain also, and sellers know that

More later

[Denis]

Hi
To try to give an answer to your question, Andy (why so much dishonesty in our field), I will agree with François' last comments.
Besides, I relally think that the whole problem is just a question of supply and demand.
In the whole militaria hobby, Third Reich artifacts are known to reach the highest prices (except maybe Naopleonic stuff). So the conclusion comes very easily : when you want to make big bucks in the militaria, it is easier to sell a fake EK1 (200 $) rather than a WWI French Croix de Guerre (20$) : with such a fake that you bought for 20$, the return on investment is easily reached !
I can't believe that fakers would make so many efforts to produce their junk items if prices were not so high...

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Andy,

Just visited a show in Germany this last weekend (Reichertshofen). I enjoy to hang around a show like that almost anonymous because most dealers do not know me. I am not the type that talks a lot to dealers except for my favourite ones so the others forget my face again and most of them are too dumb to remember something anyway. This way I get to hear a lot of incredible conversations these dealers have with other customers while I am at their table looking at their bull**** items trying to find 10 good awards out of 200 offered.
95% of the dealers are criminals selling to customers of which 95% are idiots in this hobby.

Most incredible thing is that among those 5% of dealers who do NOT knowingly sell fakes are 3% that are stupid enough to believe themselves that their fake items are real! This is really the case because I saw collectors offer known high end fakes to dealers at that show as originals and the dealers bought them as originals telling the seller what a nice item they have!!!

The good thing is when you know a little bit about human beings, you can tell a crook or a dumbass dealer just by looking at his face, his body movements, mimics and they way he talks to people. Harder over the internet though.

Cheers, Frank H.

[Tony Barto]

I think another thing that happens is that by the time some people have wised up to what they've actually purchased and accumulated without the benefit of research, experience or consultation, it's reached such a material amount of money spent that the only way they'll be able to recoup any of those dollars is to either intentionally try and screw someone else or just play ignorant. I'm sure for some it comes so easy that once they've done it and have seen how easy it is to fleece the sheep that they continue the practice.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think you are all missing andys point (or I am)...

Our hobby has a certain percentage of pond scum that few other collectors hobbys have.

We have a percentage of serious collectors, some middle laners who are slightly interested in the history and slightly in awe of the whole wehrmacht thing.

Them sticking to our shoes like fluid dog **** are the level of collector that we all see at shows.
The guy with get a real kick out of the whole Nazi thing.They think the SS is real cool. They think that the fact that "Das Reich " was an elite unit can balance the facts of Oradour out. That one Michael wittmann cancels out the negative aspects of a Theodor Eiche.

They are the guys with ketchup stains on their "SS tour of europe" Tshirts that you see at the snack corner of the shows, burping over their beer as they gloat over their mediocre level fakes of SS Cloth eagles on Splinter cammo cloth and Knights Crosses marked "L/98" and "Reel silver" .
Tzhey are the idiots who come onto the forum, post pics of complete crap, then leave in a huff when they are told their silver cigarette case engraved "To my dear Eiche, best wishes Heinrich Himmler...Normandy 1945" cant be true.

Its also the dealers that sell to them and cater to their fantasyies.

Maybe sports collectibles have a certain scum level as well, but tea cup collectors and chippendale furniture collectors are a bit more refined.

Not to say there are not crooks there as well though....

[Bill D.]

I think that there are fakes and frauds in this hobby for the same reason that they exist in virtually every other collecting field: There is money to be made.

I can't really agree that the Third Reich field is particularly rife with fraud in comparrison to other collecting fields, or even other militaria fields, or that the Third Reich area is the one field in militaria that commands some of the highest dollars.

I have a number of friends in other fields of collecting, both militaria and otherwise, and the problem is present there as well, often to a degree that makes the Third Recih area seem small. I know of collectors of American Civil War material who will pay large sums of money for a single button. A friend of mine purchased a box of buttons at an auction. Within it was a button from the uniform of the Confederate States Navy. That one buton sold for something more that $7,000. I have seen belt buckles bring similiar prices, and Civil War period uniforms, particularly if they are Confederate, can be priced in the range of $20,000 and up. I think it is safe to say that there are a fair number of fake Civil War items being churned out when they command these prices. In fact I recently said to a good friend who is a dealer: "I'm just tired of the rampant fakery and fraud in German militaria. I'm tired of the dishonesty and the crooks and the blatant sale of fakes and reproductions and altered pieces. I want to collect in a more reputable area, so I've decided to collect Civil War material." My statement had the desired effect; he could barely catch his breath from laughing so hard.

Then we have fake Tiffany lamps sold thousands of dollars; art glass or art deco pieces that might be woth a few hundred dollars sold for thousands after the name of a desirable maker has been added to the piece; Native American material, which commands unbelievable prices, and is similiarly the subject of forgers and fakers; antique toys that are reproduced, aged, and sold at high prices; not to mention the numerous fake Van Goghs and Matisses and Picassos and who knows what else that replicate paintings that can be sold not for thousands or even tens of thousands but hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.

It comes down to dollars, euros, rubles and yen. If there is money to be made there will be those who will try to make it, some honestly and many dishonestly. I agree that in our field the bad guys sometimes do seem to greatly outnumber the good guys, but that is why we are all here, to try to establish that through integrity and knowledge this area of collecting, at least, can be made better.

[Tim B.]

Andy,

I agree with Bill, this is not the only area high in fakes. Almost everything that is collectable nowadays also has its own "fake" market as big money is to be made.

It's like the medical profession; there is only so much money in developing a cure for something, but tons more in ongoing research and the marketing of temporary reliefs for whatever ailes you.

Coin collecting is another hobby that is more than abundant with this problem, including the addition of authorized restrikes using the same dies as long ago.

Why Third Reich items? Well, there has always been a large following of collectors in this area, regardless of reason, and there are only so many orignal pieces out there. Authentic items, especially ones that are rare, demand high prices and that cuts into profits or forces to seller to look harder for potential buyers that can afford and are willing to spend that kind of money on these items. More money to be made by cheaply manufacturing a decent copy and selling it for huge gains while still keeping the prices down low enough for most collectors to be interested.

Keeps bread on the table I guess. My $0.02
Tim