New Sniper

[Patrick W]

This beauty just arrived, this is the exact same version of basic grade badge that was found in the Weissinger group. Hope you like it and please post your own examples with either grey or field grey base fabric.

[German_Sniper]

Nice original badge, well done.

[Antonio Scapini]

Nice one indeed Patrick!
I have showed 2 of mine in the past, I really like this badge.

[jacquesf]

This is the one I like to see. J

[Jeff V]

The Weissinger group was a put together and holds no value for the proof of this patch. If you remember Norm's excellent analysis of these patches one can see this is a type 2. Only the type 1 (Franken awarded) has any proof of originality.

[longislandercjv]

I hate to repeat myself, but I must do so whenever sniper insignia is mentioned.
Somewhere in this forum is a comprehensive discussion about these patches.
I may have missed some definitive information (i.e., "proof") that they were actually manufactured during the war (Pre-may 1945).
When was a certain example proven to be "original", let alone a "Type 1"
and a Type "2"?
As mentioned in the discussion, the Weissinger grouping was "embellished"
with a patch not previously contained in the original grouping.

I would like to learn about the type 1 "Franken" awarded example mentioned by Jeff V; It would be interesting to see what a proven original looks like
and the documentation that makes it so.

Thank you very much for your assistance!

Chris Varrichio
longislandercjv
zoods@aol.com

[Norm F]

Hi Chris,

Somewhere in this forum is a comprehensive discussion about these patches.

Here's the link http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...71#post7104071 complete with definition and illustrations of Type 1 and Type 2. The Type 1 appears only on grey background while the Type 2 appears on both grey and Feldgrau backgrounds.

I would like to learn about the type 1 "Franken" awarded example mentioned by Jeff V; It would be interesting to see what a proven original looks like and the documentation that makes it so.

Thank you very much for your assistance!

As mentioned in that thread (and others), the grade 3 patch with celleon border attributed to Heinrich Franken (which is a Type 1) was published in the 1980's in Jörg-Michael Hormann's book and later in 2003 in Thomas Voss' "Das Scharfschützenabzeichen". That doesn't make it a "proven original" --- just the only type with some claim of provenance, albeit 35 years after the end of the war.

The situation is summarized in post #24 of that thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...79#post7104979. There is no "proven original", only a "favoured type" (would could be further qualified to "favoured type by some collectors").

As Jeff said, the badge posted by Patrick is a Type 2 and as Patrick said it is indeed the same type to show up in the Weissinger grouping, but unfortunately that grouping was contaminated, rendering it unreliable as evidence.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Patrick W]

Regarding the Weissinger grouping my recollection is that the gold grade badge had been added but the other badge in basic grade came from the family with the soldbuch? Perhaps Jacques could confirm as I believe he used to own the set?

thanks for the comments all.

[Norm F]

Regarding the Weissinger grouping my recollection is that the gold grade badge had been added but the other badge in basic grade came from the family with the soldbuch? Perhaps Jacques could confirm as I believe he used to own the set?

thanks for the comments all.

Hi Patrick,

Well, at the risk of opening old wounds, a trail of old WAF threads tell the whole story. Peter van Lukac of Stockholm Antiques Military posted just the Soldbuch and award documents for verification in 2002 (which were very interesting items). He then listed them for sale along with an IAB and basic grade Sniper patch (image 1). Markus bought the group from Peter, collected more awards and sold the bigger group (image 2) to Jacques who acknowledged in a 2009 thread: "The previous owner obtained/added the awards later." Jacques posted the whole grouping in 2009 (image 3) with the addition of an EK2 ribbon. In a discussion in 2014, Peter quoted his original sales ad: "This badge was with the group, when it came from the estate, but I can not with 100% certainity say it is original, or a 1957 issue. My guess is however that it was made after the war." It was further pointed out in that thread that the Soldbuch records the grade 3 (gold) Sniper patch, not the basic grade patch which was sold with the initial grouping.

And so Markus subsequently changed his opinion about the basic grade patch being original to the grouping, acknowledging that it was just his opinion and others could judge for the themselves.

The whole situation was messy at best. Yellowed dog-eared award documents, a heavily damaged and stained Soldbuch listing a grade 3 Sniper badge, and an incongruous clean unworn grade 1 Sniper patch sold together in 2002 with a nice story. Even if the patch did come from the family, no verification that it wasn't acquired at a later date. I myself collect awards that match my Dad's Kriegsmarine service record but aren't his actual awarded pieces. Probably someday some dealer will acquire my Dad's EK2 certificate and the EK2 I collected for display and say "directly from the vet's son".

Now, one could also go back and say the Franken grouping with the "Type 1" grade 3 badge published in 1980 could have been a patch acquired post-war by Franken or Franken's family -- provenance is a tricky thing. An earlier publication pushes the date of this type at least back to 1970 and that's as good as it gets -- still better than what we have for the "Type 2" patch.

Best regards,
---Norm

[jacquesf]

Here are two links very relevant to the discussion. It seems, between two dealers PvL and Detlev and the colletor Markus that originally bought it, some serious misrepresentation occured. PVL commented in detail on that page 20. BTW the soldbuch and paperwork is 100% original. I still believe the sniper badges to be original, but not original to the group.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ead.php?t=4077
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Weissinger

[Norm F]

I still believe the sniper badges to be original, but not original to the group.

The only problem, of course, is that without the Weissinger group there is no provenance whatsoever to the "Type 2" patches. Just a bunch of minty unworn cloth badges on various backings.

Best regards,
---Norm

[chrisje110]

None of these can be proven original. In my opinion they where never awarded, only the document was written, or it was written in the soldbuch.