Wurster small "w" PAB question

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Attached are a few pics of a small "w" Wurster PAB I picked up. Philippe, you may remember this one, I asked you about it right before I purchased it. The past few weeks I have been comparing mine to all the pics I can find in the archives. While I believe the quality of this PAB is exceptional and what you would expect from an early buntmetall award, the die characteristics do not match any other massive small "w" PAB I can find.

The first picture is the obverse, notice the veins in the leaves. On all other massive Wursters, the veins seem to droop, whereas mine are either shorter or do not droop at all. The detailing on the obverse is superb, along with all other Wursters. The only lack of detail area I can find is on the eagles legs. We usually see some striations, but this one has none. Worn out die, possibly.

The second picture is of the back. Notice how mine does not have the die flaw common to most Wursters. It is my opinion that this die flaw probably evolved over time and that there may be some out there that do not have the flaw, but they are rare. I have not been able to find one without the flaw. I have looked at this area with a loop alot and do not see even the slightest beginnings of this flaw. The "w" also appears to be close, but different than others I have seen.

The 3rd picture is of the grass area. It does not appear to be a match for the first or second pattern grass areas normally found on Wursters. It may be a match to the massive zink Wursters, marked KWM, but I cannot find any good pictures to compare. All are too blurry to make a good comparison. If anyone has one and can take some good pics of the obverse for comparison, I would appreciate it.

So, what do we have here? Philippe, any thoughts? Could it be a 3rd pattern?? If it is a match to the zinkers, could it be the missing link right before the transition to zink and a new maker mark? Maybe the die flaw on the reverse at the hinge had gotten so bad that they reworked it, new back and slightly new obverse right before switching to zink??

Or is it a new, high quality fake .......

[Thomas Durante]

Pic #2

Pic #2

[Thomas Durante]

Pic #3

Pic #3

Thanks for looking.

Tom D.

[Don D.]

Can you add the measurements/weight?
Thanks
Don

[Frank Heukemes]

If that badge is a fake, I will eat it.

[Indy]

hahaha Frank, don't eat it...I can take it
best regards

Indy

[Greg]

I would eat it too, with no salt or pepper, cause I don't think this one is fake!

But, as Tom speculated, are we looking at more than one reverse die for these?

I threw together some closeups of small w Wurster marks on PABs that we've shown before (forgive me, guys, for borrowing your images!)

Looks like several different positions of the w - mine and ustufvorwaerts' and I think Philippe's are slightly higher than the "break" of the eagle's wing and wreath, while Frank's and Johan's and Vadim's and Skip's bronze are right at the break, and Tom's and Skip's silver seem to be slightly below the break.

I also looked for the die flaws as Tom mentioned, and it looks like all these have them except Tom's and I couldn't tell on either of Skip's.

Or all we all just getting too paranoid? I don't have any problem with Tom's at all.

Regards,
Greg

[Greg]

Tom,

Here are the fronts of my massive KWM Wurster and small w one for comparison.

Regards,
Greg

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the input everyone. Frank, I feel very good about the quality and finish of this PAB, just trying to figure out the die differences. Clearly there is another die at work if you just compare the obverse dies.

Greg, awesome collage of reverse maker mark pics. Seems to be a slight variation of location of maker marks, don't really know what to make of it. Look at Franks & your maker mark location compared to ustufvorwaerts, your is right on the edge of the badge while ustufvorwaerts is almost in between the edge and the hinge.

Greg, thanks for posting you massive zink badge. As far as I can tell, the veining of the leaves look like a match, but I still think the grass is different. Could be the glare, but the grass to the left of the rock appears different.

Philippe, any thoughts? I know, I know, the last thing you want is another variant to acquire

Don, measurements are:

Weight 37.9 grams
Height 60.02 mm
Width 41.30mm

Thanks guys.

Tom

[Philippe DB]

Hi Tom,


Interesting to say the least, absolutely original but the first massive buntmetall small "w" Wurster I have ever seen that doesn't feature the first pattern grass area.

Although it isn't a perfect second pattern either it for sure is much closer to the second then to the first pattern. The rock area and stylish "V" shaped grass halms are typical 2 pattern features as are the 2 large grass halms that run parallel next to the rock's right side. However the right side still is the chaotic 1 pattern design.

The simple thing would be to explain this by an ongoing process of re-working the dies that slowly led to the different grass patterns we are able to distinguish. Another possibility is the use of different dies at the same time. The grass pattern on the zinkers is also clearly different from the second pattern butmetall variants.

As soon as I find the time I'll try to make a comparison of all the Wuster grass patterns we know so far to see if this leads somewere.
KR
Philippe

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Philippe,

Thanks for weighing in with your opinion. Reworking of the die does seem to be the logical explanation. I would think reworking the dies would be quite a big job, and they wouldn't do it unless absolutely necessary.

Mike P., any thoughts?

How do the weight and measurements compare with other buntmetall Wursters?

Thanks guys.
Tom D.

[Philippe DB]

How do the weight and measurements compare with other buntmetall Wursters?

Tom D.

Spot on Tom.

KR
Philippe