Legion Condor Panzer Badge

[Leroy]

Thanks, Hans Günter!

This piece also appears to be a Souval, but with a different hardware set-up.

[Leroy]

Hardware. The pin/hinge are a secure fit, not "loose and wobbly".

[Leroy]

One more. After very close examination, not exactly matching either S&L or Souval. Incredible detail, with ends of ribbons not cut at all, but just shorter.

[Legion Condor]

Hallo Leroy,

Even the play shows us how we have to S & L and Soval look closely.

The many variants of these 2 producers are in many Rätzel.

But again, everything looks like a post-war piece.

We had the piece indeed discussed this before.

Greeting LC

PS: This post shows once again how quickly a piece as genuine can reach the market.

[Leroy]

"Rätzel" (from Hans Gunter) = "many secrets, many or a lot of questions where you will find very difficult to answer".

These pieces are so close in design that I have to wonder if S&L, or someone else, created a master die used by many.

[Norm F]

These pieces are so close in design that I have to wonder if S&L, or someone else, created a master die used by many.

Hi Gentry,

Well, I wouldn't say "many". When you study the Meybauer, Schickle and Juncker badges closely there are significant differences between them in wreath, skull sutures and tank features suggesting different masters for each of those three.

It's only the "S&L-like", the post-war S&L, the Souval and your enigmatic badge in post #33 that show close homology suggesting a common source, and yes for those it's quite likely that S&L was the common denominator. There are many examples of Souval borrowing from S&L in the post-war period (including the Spanish Cross) so the LCTB wouldn't be the first time there.

It's also possible that a wartime 3rd party die maker (like Wissmann in Pforzheim) could have supplied S&L originally but I don't think so, since in the KM world whenever Wissmann was involved you usually see several other makers with the same design (like S&L, Souval, Orth, Hobacher, Mayer, F&B, and sometimes Wiedmann for example) whereas the LCTB of this design really only seems to have these four discernible variants, at least two of which are post-war (the 1960's S&L and Souval) . Can't rule it out though.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Hi,Norm - Sorry. I didn't mean to include all the others under the same umbrella. We already know (or at least think we know, from their catalog and the Leipzig trade show exhibition) that S&L made/sold this badge), so I would draw a connecting line with at least Souval and perhaps others. The "Sedlatzek" RK, which we know now used the same frame as Souval used -at the least- after the war, is close (not exact) to the S&L frame. We don't have any idea, really, what connections were truly there or what other makers may have tried their hand at the CLTB.

[Norm F]

The piece of the Bartz group has a different needle hook. I think the time has been replaced. The 2 other Meybauer pieces show the original needle hook.

Hi Hans Günter,

I don't think the catch on your Meybauer from the Bartz group has to be a replacement. As you know, Meybauer sometimes used the "?-shaped" catch on other awards. It's probably just a variant.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hi Norm,

Thanks for the info. Was not sure. I think the hook with my Bartz piece was once repaired.

When times appears an extremely rare piece Meybauer then always hook only with C.

Had last week the opportunity to see a group with RK Meybauer PTA Lc. The piece also had a hook C.

I think you're right, looks like a variant of. Will I still extend my book to the hook.


Thanks and regards LC

Hans Günter

PS: Norm your knowledge has become very good at the PTA-LC.
That pleases me very much.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Another great and informative thread. Norm, excellent comparisons as always, well done.

I also agree that the catch on the Bartz badge is not a repair, Meybauer certainly used the "?" shaped catch on their GABs, Heer Flak badges, PABs, etc.

Hans Gunter, very much looking forward to your book on these.

Tom

[Leroy]

Is there already a serious and definitive consensus on the originality of the badge which started this thread?

I have asked for, and the owner of the badge has graciously consented to provide, additional photos of the badge in the next couple of days for us to look at.

There has been extremely useful information posted here and, as always, Norm has done a superior job. What an asset he is!

[Bob Hritz]

We certainly know Souval produced badges post war, but do we know postively, that Souval did not make this badge during the period? I think there is a'lot to learn about the LCPAB.

Bob Hritz

[Chet Sowersby]

A highly informative thread that has certainly changed my perspective on the LCTB. Prior to this thread I firmly believed in the example of the OP. Not too sure now. Outstanding work Norm!

Chet

[Erich B.]

I didn't realize this thread had grown so long! Here are some additional closeups of the badge that started the discussion. I can't tell whether or not the hinge has been added--it doesn't look as though it's been disturbed or reworked to me, but perhaps sharper eyes will be able to determine something.

[Erich B.]

More photos to follow
Erich