IAB Juncker?

[fischer]

Hi Guys

I have studied the patterns on both the Mutant, L10 marked and the unmarked Deschler Design and the only noticeable difference is the aforementioned wringed neck attribute from the die trimming process.

There are very slight differences found on 1L wreath leaf (such as, the top left-side vein from the bayonet is not as obvious or distinct on some) when comparing the L/10 examples, but I associate this as random variation occurring during the production process.

From the few Mutants I have seen, it appears the Kar98k barrel is thinner on the Mutant than on the L/10 and the unmarked Design examples.

best Regards, fischer

[rbminis]

Some differences I noticed in this comparison photo.
Ralph.

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi guys......

......I'm just trying to get a better grasp on what is being stated here.

Please excuse my ignorance, but when 'die-trimming' is referred to just exactly what does that mean?

Is it meant to describe the hand trimming of a badge after it has been removed from a die?

Is it meant to describe a process of using a separate die to trim a badge after having been removed from the casting/forging/stamping die?

I am asking because when I see the upper half images of the two different mutant badges posted together the leaf and veining is the same(second leaves down from the top on both the left and right sides of the wreath).

These leaves are distinctly different in appearance from the half images of the other badges leaves in the excellent montage assembled by Don.

Regards,

[Thomas Durante]

Is it meant to describe a process of using a separate die to trim a badge after having been removed from the casting/forging/stamping die?

Hi Bruce,

I think your description above best fits what we are talking about when we say "Die Trimmer" or "Trimming Die". I think of it like a cookie cutter. Its not hand finishing IMO because the trim is very uniformly done and the same from badge to badge.

I think I see what you are describing as a difference in the Left Leaf, 2nd from the top, see my compare below (correct me if I am wrong Bruce). I see it too; a noticeable difference in the shape of the outer edges of the leaf, but is this a true difference in "obverse die" or was it a difference in the "trimming die" that cut off a portion of the leaf lobe of the Mutant IABs?

Don, I am a little confused by your comparison above and your comments that the "Deschler L/10, Deschler-Design Unmarked, and Mutant is the wrinkled neck from the die trimming process". I thought the whole reason we had a "Mutant" was that the head was definitely different from the L/10 and Unmarked Deschler-Design IABs and it was more like the Juncker-attributed IABs? Isn't that where the term "Mutant" came from?

Thanks

Tom

[fischer]

Hi Tom

It's my opinion during the "stamping and trimming" process, the Mutant head sculpt gets it's shape.

It is my understanding once the base material is squeezed into the shape and form of the die by the press, the badge is then "trimmed" by the press to remove excess material.
If you look at the reverse pics of an unmarked Deschler Design (bronze) and the Mutant, the biggest profile difference is the area under the beak (yellow area).

The label "Mutant" comes from comparing the obverse design of the unmarked and L/10 Deschlers to this example.

Finding the obverse design almost exacting (except for the wringed neck feature) it was surmised to be a "Mutation" of the Deschler Design...thus nicknamed the "Mutant".

Best Regards, fischer