definintion of die struck

[keifer kahn]

hello guys,
reference the term "die struck".I seem to come across two end finishes for the term .In the anschluss medal section at wehrmacht awards.com ,the medals are described as die struck,and having extremely smooth sides.I have two oct 1st medals and they are both exactly as described.On the other hand ,I also see information that die struck pieces should have edges like a coin.Russian front medals are described as being die struck,and all the examples i have seen upon close inspection have edges like a coin.
So ,which is it? smooth or coin like?Or is the term being used incorrectly in regards to describing the manufacture of one of these medals?

I personally think it should be termed die stamped(for the russian front),as that technique will leave a coin like edge.

regards keifer

[Sebastian Bianchi]

The edges you talk about are “sheer marks”, not quite like a coin whose ridged finishing is included in the die. Both badges are technically “die struck”, but more accurately the ones that show sheer marks are die forged where the metal is heated before it is stuck. Also medals were hand finished so some will not show the sheer marks, or will only partially show them.

For a thorough explanation of constructions methods please see this article,

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/rese...nstruction.htm

I noted your comments, and will add it to my list of things to clarify on the site.

Sebastian

[Hugh W. Brock]

Die struck means the image is formed between two steel dies from pressure or a blow. Forging refers to forming red hot metal with blows, and it must be machined/filed afterwards. Simply heating metal is not forging.
Coins are made from uniform sheets of metal from which planchets (blanks) are cut. The images are struck between two dies with the planchet seated in a circular holder. The edges are smooth and precise. The ribbing (called milling) is usually rolled on in a separate step.
Die struck or pressed decorations are punched out of irregular, oversize blanks. After impressing the design, the item is then trimmed in a shear press to the outline desired. If a good job is done, little or no cleanup by filing is required.
Most Third Reich medals were acid bathed and/or bead blasted to give a satin surface (the Germans did not seem to like shiny medals), so the marks can be blurred. This also leads to difficulty if you are trying to tell a good investment cast copy from an original.
There has been a very good show on how coins are minted on the history TV channel. The process is practically identical for medals (except for the coin requirement of precise weight, thickness and diameter).
Hope this has been of help.
Hugh Brock

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Hello Hugh,

Sure, it was of great help. This is an area that I am always learning, and there have been some good threads on the subject here before.

You say "Forging refers to forming red hot metal with blows", can you expland a little? (more especifically how would you end up with a badge this way?) I'm just trying to get a mental picture.

Seba

[James Noble]

There are two kinds of forging machines, forging hammers and forging presses. Both use hollow tools called dies to help shape metal. The metal is forced into the die and takes the shape of the die's cavity.

Forging hammers shape metal by striking it repeatedly in rapid succession. The power to raise the hammer is provided by steam, hydraulic energy, or electricity. In some forging hammers, the power also lowers the hammer. In other machines, called drop hammers, the hammer falls of its own weight. Forging hammers are used to shape most small forgings.

Forging presses squeeze metal into shape. Pressing is a much slower process than hammering, but only a press can provide the force necessary to make the most massive forgings. Pressing also causes less shock to the machine and the building that houses it than hammering does. Most forging presses are powered by hydraulic energy.

Dies that help shape forgings may be paired or single. Paired dies are used to make tools, engine parts, and other forgings that have complex shapes. The upper die is attached to the hammer or the moving part of the press, and the lower die to the anvil. Items produced by paired dies are called closed die forgings or, if a drop hammer is used, drop forgings.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Thanks jnoble. I thought because they were struck out of metal with dies, they were die struck, and did not differentiate between the hot metal (die forging) and the cold metal (die striking).

I now see the different terminology, but just to be clear Hugh said that “simply heating metal is not forging” What other differences are there between “die strike” and “die forge”? (other than hot metal can be pressed and I assume cold metal can not). Are the methods you described above only used for "forging"? As I understand it the same process was used for cold metal.

Thanks,

Seba

[Hugh W. Brock]

How these items were made is a very important point for many reasons.

Forging is hammering red hot metal, usually iron or steel, into the rough shape of the finished item. That is the definition I use. It adds strength to the iron or steel. It may be done by moving the red hot metal with tongs under the blows of the hammer or by hammering the red hot metal into a die. This is done with scissors, wrenches, K/G43 rifle receivers, etc. The resulting piece is rough and scaly because it was red hot. It must be ground or
machined and polished if a finished surface is desired.

The materials used to make decorations are relatively soft and thin, much easier to form than say a car bumper. The die part of the definition has to do with the precise, detailed, intricate steel form the metal is shaped in---die stamped or die pressed or die cast. Forging dies on the contrary are coarse, rough shaping dies.

A stamp strikes a sharp blow, a press squeezes. Presses vary from 2 foot high screw presses of the type used to make buttons to massive powered presses. A large powered press does not require the same sort of foundation needed for a hammer, nor does it make the loud noise.

I have some blanks from N.S.Meyer, NY made by stamping and by casting. The stamped or pressed reddish metal shows some scaling on the die struck piece. The details are crisp and sharp. You can see the vertical shear lines along the sides where the excess was trimmed. The heating (from pressure) is evident.
Detlev had a rough blank of a Pour le Merite for sale a while back that had not been trimmed.

Forging for copper alloys, zinc, soft iron, aluminum, etc., would require a furnace (extra cost), would negate the fine detail and would add nothing to the quality of the piece. Would have put the manufacturer out of business because of inefficiency.

Another point, if one examines the copper alloy badges (even the early thin Luftwaffe ones), you will invariably see tiny surface stress fractures. These are from stretching the metal. It is not enough to warrant not using this method. (If you try to form steel or iron cold, you can end up with some bad cracks, and that is why it is formed red hot.) These cracks will look different on an investment cast copy---not sharp.

Hugh Brock

[Sebastian Bianchi]

I had read, and understand, the process of making badge through the use of dies. My error was in using "forging" to describe die striking with hot metal. Summing up, I think we can say, then, that;

1) - A badge is die struck if metal is shaped with dies, whether or not the metal struck is hot or cold.

2) - Die forging is the process of making rough shapes to be worked on later, or to make it stronger.

Thanks for providing the detailed explanation Hugh.

Seba