anti partisan badge gold grade for review please

[jeetley]

hi guys..a few weeks ago i purchased a silver grade anti partisan badge in silver grade from my local dealer..i put it on here and it came back all good..except it had a period repair..this disappointed me a bit but knowing the dealer had a gold grade badge i decided i"d take it back and exchange it plus cash for the gold grade badge..so here it is for your opinions..and like a true zinger its sucked most of its finish in but in natural light there is quite a bit of the gold finish left on it..especially the back..my first impression is it was bronze…but the COA that came with it of Gordon Wulliamson states its gold..what are your opinions on it gents ?

[jeetley]

more pics

[jeetley]

forgot to mention it has been mistruck with the die thats why the skull is a bit weird…mentioned on the coa

[kraut72]

Hi

This NOT Juncker, but very interesting more dieflaw/strike.....

[Norm F]

Wow, that's the wildest mis-strike I've ever seen. The die was flipped 180 degrees, superimposing features from the upper inner wreath and sword hilt upside down on to the lower serpent. Or perhaps the planchet was stamped, flipped 180 degrees and partially stamped again before detecting the error and desisting?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Good eye Norm, I think you are exactly right that the planchet appears to have been flipped at one point. Very weird.

Regardless, a postwar S&L product in my opinion.

Tom

[Norm F]

Perhaps easier to see the impression in this orientation.

[Norm F]

I haven't studied these badges in any detail so my comments are not definitive, but I haven't seen that reverse setup on these before. Has anyone else?

It's certainly different from this one which is from the eMedals "Lüdenscheid souvenir board" assumed to be from the early post-war period.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Christopher G.]

Regardless, a postwar S&L product in my opinion.

Tom

Agreed!

Regards,
Chris G.

[Norm F]

The hinge and pin look disconcertingly close to the type used on some of the "L/13" fakes, products that were a combination of new castings and leftovers (and not by S&L).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying they're necessarily from the same source, just that they're similar and I've yet to see an unequivocally wartime use of a setup like this on a war badge. Perhaps others can chip in with examples? Maybe on a combat clasp of some kind?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

You can find a myriad of hardware setups on these S&L APBs, including the wide-bellied pin like the one that started this thread. Here are a few more, one from Stan's collection I believe and here is another that Frank Scholz has listed on this website..

Tom

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the other examples. So is this combination of wide pin and wide barrel hinge seen on any other badges, either wartime or post-war? (Just wondering what specifically makes you associate this particular setup with a post-war S&L as opposed to a late war S&L?)

Best regards,
---Norm

Forgive me if this has all been discussed before, but I can't find an old thread discussing this setup?

[RKC]

jeetley:

Again it's a "" for your 'Anti-partisan' badge. If you
look in J.R. Angolia's original issue of "For Fuhrer And Fatherland"
you will come across what he called an original 'flatback' with the
wide pin in the book....It actually was a 'Souval' piece with the 'postwar'
pin & hinge set-up. After a telephone call with "Jack" regarding the
"differences" I found between the front of his badge & the back of it
he admitted that the pictures in "For Fuhrer And Fatherland" were of
2 separate badges & not the same badge front & back.

You have a "postwar" badge right now that that dealer sold to you.
On top of that, it's 'buggered'! It's not unique!! You have a piece that
was poorly stamped & should have been pulled from the 'finished'
production pile & thrown out because of it's "below standards"
quality.

Once again, you're ending-up with another 'HEADACHE' that is really
going to be a pain in the azz trying to move later on.

Hey, as I said before, collector to collector, it's your money, go ahead
spend it on whatever you want but, I definitely wouldn't pick-up this
piece either if it were me. C.O.A., whatever, read what is printed in
that thing - It states 'postwar'....That's something you never want to
see in a 'c.o.a.' if you're seriously looking for real pieces.

As I previously said, It's your money & your decision....For me, that
piece is a - .

Good luck!

Ron.

[Antonio Scapini]

Hi Norm, we can find the hardware setup used in these flat backs also in wartime original BKAs (or other badges). So it is not a good point to support the idea these badges are pre or post may '45.

But I have to say I have found some other pieces made from S&L after the war with a double strike like the one on this BKA.

I'm convinced now some of these flat backs are wartime, but it is impossible distinguish them from the others made after the war.

[Thomas Durante]

So is this combination of wide pin and wide barrel hinge seen on any other badges, either wartime or post-war? (Just wondering what specifically makes you associate this particular setup with a post-war S&L as opposed to a late war S&L?)

Hi Norm,

Its not necessarily this particular setup that makes this APB postwar, although it is a major factor for me. The fact that the pin has the 1957 scrape often found on S&L 57er version badges suggests to me that this was put together by S&L around the 1957 timeframe.

But more importantly, there is no real evidence to suggest that the flatback APBs were made during the war. There is no photographic evidence of one of these being worn. These are not found ground dug. There are not found directly in the hands of German vets. There is nothing to suggest these were made prior to May 1945.

The only real tangible evidence to suggest they were around near the end of the war is the single example found on a postwar S&L Souvenier board. But for me there are a few problems with that. Firstly, there is no real way to verify when this particular board was picked up, all we have is a vet story which we know all too well that these are fraught with inconsistencies. So at a minimum, I think we would need several boards with similar stories before we can say with a fair amount of certainty that these flatbacks were around in the first few years after the war.

Secondly, we have to know exactly when S&L started new production after the war. We know they did, its just a matter of exactly when. If S&L started in July 1945 for instance, then these boards are of no help in determining what was made by S&L during the war.

And thirdly, I have always had a problem with pointing to something that is definitely postwar such as a Souvenir board as proof that something was made during the war. That is counter-intuitive to me.

The onus should always be on us to prove a badge is wartime rather than to prove it is not. Up to now, I have not seen any evidence to suggest these were made during the war. On the contrary, there is some evidence to say they are postwar (1957er setups, fake maker marks as seen on other S&L postwar badges, etc.).

When Williamson, or other dealers and collectors say that "these could have been made by S&L after Juncker was bombed out", that may be correct, but there is no evidence at all that this is true. Its a good theory and I personally like it, but we should remember it is merely a theory and 100% speculative. It should not be used as proof that these are wartime at all. In that light, they will stay postwar for me until I see some tangible evidence that they were made during the war.

Tom