The Deumer oval crimp PAB... missing link finally found!

[PKAliebhaber]

Hi guys

@Don, thanks for editing the IAB story. I always thought PAB and IAB shared the same line...

@PKAliebhaber, I never said typical Deumer bloch hinge, I said set up, meaning the combination of block hinge and catch together!

if the block hinge isnt a "unicum" --> just typical for Deumer, so why with catch together? Catch is also just a quit not uncommon one

Yes maybe you "thought PAB and IAB shared the same line" but we can all think everything we want! For me no proof in all and of cause not even clear evidences, sorry

[panzer nco]

Nice Pickup Giel !!

[Giel VW]

if the block hinge isnt a "unicum" --> just typical for Deumer, so why with catch together? Catch is also just a quit not uncommon one

Yes maybe you "thought PAB and IAB shared the same line" but we can all think everything we want! For me no proof in all and of cause not even clear evidences, sorry

I really don't understand you PKAliebhaber, where did I wrote the block hinge was a unicum? Show me an other catch like this which is not of a Deumer piece please.

@Ken, the smile wink thing is a smily I used, but the auto editor always screws this up. Just wanted to tell you on a normal way that the catch plate would never be rectangular, else I would not even start with this thread. No hard feeling buddy

I was finally able to make a decent picture of what I ment. Half of the plate is covered with soldered and finish.

[fischer]

Hi Giel

Thanks for the additional pic...I do see it now now, definitely has the semicircle shaped catch plate.

Congrats on a great find!

Best Regards, fischer

[Panzercracker]

No hard feelings, and I do understand the emphasis you want to make on that "half moon" catchplate, because it, (IMO), secures the connection to the remainder of their (Deumer's) PAB line. Here's a "textbook" solid, zinc based, Daisy 2/Deumer bronze example IMO... Both "die" and "design" clearly changed.

--Rgds,
Ken

[Panzercracker]

close-up of the catch, with the "halfmoon" catchplate...

[Panzercracker]

...backside

[Panzercracker]

...3/4 hinge (sans old-hinge block).

p.s.: I'm pretty sure the pin was replaced...

[Norm F]

close-up of the catch, with the "halfmoon" catchplate...

Hi Ken,

Perhaps it's just the photo but that looks to me more like a failed catch crimp and replaced catch rather than half-moon catch plate?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Panzercracker]

Nope, baseplate is a "halfmoon" shape and the catch is "flat stock", just "worn" and not repaired/resoldered. There's "vert 'd gris" underneath the catch, where it was factory welded eons ago.

--Ken

[Giel VW]

Hi Ken

Think you're wrong here buddy. What you see is a failed "oval crimp". This is very typical for these badges, the flak badges share this factory repair where a new catch (and square catch plate) was attached straight on the bottom of the crimp area. Both hinge and catch are completely different on these badges.

What I wanted to show with my badge is that this is the one and only transitional piece in the Deumer PAB history. It already shows the new design, BUT still has the solder on Deumer set up.

[Panzercracker]

I haven't seen many so called "failed crimp" PAB, but they're close in "design" to the transitional piece you've shown. Not the "next" PAB variant like this one I pulled from an old thread, but perhaps "linked" somewhere down the line with Deumer. Not the same "hinge crimp", but you can see the "half-moon" shaped base plate under the catch (in the bronze example), no??

--Ken

[Panzercracker]

...obverse "design" side to side comparison

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Giel, thanks very much for the closeups of the catch. To be honest, I too thought the catch plate was rectangular like Don, Norm and Ken, so now seeing the closeups and it is indeed semi-circular this badge is so much more of an exciting find!! Not only is the catch the typical "Deumer" catch, but the plate being cut off at the top making it semi-circular just makes the connection to Deumer so much stronger IMO. Even if Deumer was using a third-party supplier for the actual catch itself (with they very well could have done), there is no real reason for that supplier to cut off the top of the catchplate for a solid-backed badge. Cutting the plate like this is more out of necessity for hollow badges with small reverse wreath areas like we see on hollow IABs & GABs. To me this catchplate suggest that there was a transition period where Deumer continued to use these leftover plates/catches even after they switched to solid production IMO. Very exciting find here!!

Ken, I agree with the others, the badge you show looks to have a failed crimp area for the catch; the size and shape of it follows the same outline as the crimp. I agree with you that the pin is replaced, but the badge itself looks to have the same finish on it, and so does that catch so that makes me question the entire badge might be a cast repro....

Tom

[Panzercracker]

I fail to see the "repro" in that bronze one Tom, because the underlying base metal is consistent with what I like to see in a zinc based badge (please refer closely to the eagle legs). Yes, the badge looks a bit "soft" in detail, but IMO, anyway, could be from very hard wear. It's not my badge, however. ** I also find the "halfmoon" shape at the "catch area" rather "co-incidental". You'll have to go to full screen, but I am posting the 3 side to side (front and backsides) for posterity. From left to right, earliest to latest (whether or not the bronze is "original"). Interesting that the two to the right (bronze and silver), look very closely matched, from the backside, compared to the one (Giel's example) to the extreme left. Again, you'll have to got to "full screen" to see that.

--Ken