Off the top of my head Tom. S&L for sure. Schickle/Mayer too... I'm curious where Tom's heading, so let's here 'em out.
--Ken
--Ken
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dont let this thread be one of the dozend others with "how many makers used this catch and so on".... you Tom had many times with ak or BassDOriginally posted by Panzercracker View PostComment
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I just would like to see some better evidence that Deumer is maker of Daisy 2 - like you said Tom no marked packet f.e. foundComment
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Never had an open discussion with T. Durante, or anyone else, with regards to this maker's badge --and only "touched-on" set-ups in one other thread (Rettenmeier). ???????? Tom, please continue.
--Ken
Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View PostComment
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When and why Deumer switched to the massiv zinc badges? Anybody an idea?
Why we can see the daisy ones belong to Deumer too? Havent heard a answer till now, just know from the deduction and really cant agree with it - it isnt waterproof
remember i said i read that Deumer at beginning 1943 just had 10 workersComment
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A good company can do a lot with 10 good men. But that aside, opinions are just that, and, in the end, whether we all agree, or on the same page, is another --without written bonifide "TR-era" proof. That said though, IMO, the change up between, what I believe between, Deumer's GAB and IAB, is consistent enough for me to call them "Deumer". Even without the hardware l@@ky looks. Tell me you don't get the Deumer "feel" runnin from the GABs and U-Boats BOTH Tom's have shown. By the way, does anybody?? have an idea, "exactly", when any company switched over from one "artistically played" design to another??
Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View PostLast edited by Panzercracker; 04-25-2014, 05:53 PM.Comment
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Ken, a agree 100 %Originally posted by Panzercracker
"but would be interested to here more on the connection to Deumer on the Daisy 2"
Yes i would also like to go back to topic! Yes maybe 10 good men can do much work! But i read what 8 of this 10 where old woman - ok i dont want to say something negativ about old woman at work
but you know - i would like to know of in which year maybe deumer changed all the Bagdes to massiv zinc ones in other dies with new set up systems and so on..... (just if its correct what Daisy 2 = Deumer - we can all agree then it was this way daisy 2 must be first because we have a buntmetal version -IAB)
How was the way to connect daisy 2 to Deumer, I know the way shown is so speculativ - for me just very curious evidences, not more
have we more today to Link daisy 2 to Deumer???
Problem is what in many thread its namend: OH YES YOU HAVE A NICE DEUMER - then people show a daisy 2 - its namend clear Deumer, this can confuse many new collectors, i believe the need very clear evidences to do it, better would be a proof, but like Tom conviced me, if you found more marked packets from a maker with same badges in it, its also for me a good evidenceComment
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Hello Guys,
Great thread overall. Without scouring the threads for info, what are the reasons a maker might change their design details? Was it worn dies or vanity or anything else? Does anyone know if the same die can be used for both tomak and zinc? and is there any correlation time wise between some manufacturers changing the "details in the design" of their badges and them predominantly switching to zinc?
DaveComment
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Yes good question at all and i havent heard a answer till know how daisy 2 was linked to Deumer in the way many people say very clear "its a Deumer IAB ..." and so onComment
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Originally posted by Dave_B View Post
Hi guys,
Dave, I don't think we have any concrete evidence of exactly why some makers changed their obverse designs sometimes. In many cases we see the design change come at the same time they switch to a different base metal (say from aluminum to tombak to zink). So it would seem when a particular maker switched to a different base metal and created a new die, they took the opportunity to change up the design to make it more detailed or give it a fiercer eagle, etc. In other cases, there is no clear reason why a design changed, as is the case with Deumer Paratrooper badges. Both of their designs utilize tombak eagles and nickel silver wreaths, so we aren't sure why they chose to create a whole new set of dies and change the eagle and wreath design. Maybe it was a proprietary reason (i.e., if a die cutter provided dies to two different makers, they couldn't be 100% identical.)
Regarding the different base metals, my opinion is that dies used for tombak badges could be used to make zinc badges but it probably wasn't ideal. In an ideal situation, I think the maker would choose to get a new set of dies made when they switched base metals that were properly made for the thickness and hardness of the metal being struck. That would be ideal, but wartime wasn't ideal and I think we see plenty of evidence to show that makers used the same dies when they switched base metals.
This wouldn't work though if you went from making hollow tombak badge to solid zinc badge. If a maker switched from hollow production to solid production, then I think almost certainly a new die had to be made. That is also why we see a progression to crimped badges when makers switched from hollow to solid. When a maker switched to solid production, they had to create a new die and often took advantage to provide crimped in hinges and catches. This would speed production along.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Please list for me the makers that used this type of catch. This is not a trap, it is a very legitimate question. We know Deumer used it because we have L/11-marked EK1 spanges. So anyone else use it? If yes, then please post pics.Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post
Thanks guys.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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yes Tom i know this discussion with the catch and other deumer marked badges like some WBs....i am not conviced
so all hollow Daisy 2 were just not good enought? So they uses much more zinc at later time in war to make massiv badges?Comment
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We don't know why Deumer switched, it could be any number of reasons. But the most obvious reason would be a design change when they were switching from hollow to solid production. I seem to remember that Andreas or possibly Basti posted a PKZ memo that required makers to end hollow production and start solid construction. This was around 1941 and maybe part of the Wissmann letters, hopefully one of them or Norm can jump in and confirm that. But that would be the reason for companies switching from hollow to solid production.
Regarding the catch question, that is not the only connection to Deumer. Its just one piece of the puzzle. But I think you must agree that the list of makers using that type of catch is very small and should narrow down the list of makers. If it was bought by a 3rd party supplier and not unique to Deumer, then it begs the question: why don't we see this catch on many other badges then?
Again, its not proof positive of Deumer production, but it certainly narrows the field of makers to only a handful. And when combined with other circumstantial evidence, the picture starts to become clear that Deumer is the maker, in my opinion ofcourse.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Thanks Bruce.
Here is a quote from Andreas regarding badges being switched to solid production rather than hollow. We still don't know if this was some type of mandate from the PKZ or LDO or just S&L's preference that their dies be made for solid badge production, but its a good view into the production process in 1942:
"The answer can be found in the letters from Steinhauer & Lück to the die maker Wissmann. This letter is dated 1942 and Steinhauer & Lücks informs Wissmann that from now on the IAB has to be produced as massive version."
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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