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    #16
    Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
    Not all unmarked IABs, just the ones with consistent die characteristics and reverse hardware.



    Not even the ones found in the Deumer-marked packets? Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I am of the opposite opinion, and maybe I am wrong but based on alot of forensic evidence I think connecting both to Deumer makes sense. And why not two designs?? When you know for a fact that Deumer used different designs on several of their Luftwaffe badges, then I have no problem to believe they could have done the same with their IABs and PABs.

    Tom

    p.s., welcome to the WAF forum, I think you will find a bit more discussion here than some others


    Hi Tom,
    sure i know from the marked deumer packets and i havent any problem to believe this IAB is made by Deumer also the GAB mentend by Panzercracker.
    Dont get me wrong here at all, i just wanted to ask some questions which i also have no answers for to see how much we all know together to link badges to Deumer
    My main problem is to link the daisy 2 to deumer as well, i dont have understand how this worked.... can you explain it short to me? I just know the way from the little Dictator but i cant buy it.... there was some ground dougs of PABs in Lüdenscheid and so on....you know
    Thanks for the welcome, discussion is something important, you can not find everywhere, you know which place i mean hopefully i will not forget my password here

    Comment

      #17
      Hi Guys,

      I don't know anything about IABs of course, but just thought I'd mention the Deumer U-Boat timeline for cross reference.

      The Tombak Deumer which is depicted in their early wartime catalog and bears typical "Deumer-like" hardware came in both hollow and solid formats. Upon transitioning to zinc this rather massive and idiosyncratic obverse design was abandoned for a completely different mainstream "Schwerin-like" obverse design. This zinc variant is identified again by Deumer-like hardware and furthermore is found in Deumer marked envelopes (like their Minesweeper badge with the same style hardware and envelopes).

      So at least for the U-Boat badge we have pretty good evidence for Deumer's shift to a radically different obverse design. One might speculate that Wolf Conze, a savvy proprietor with both Berlin and LDO connections, saw an economic advantage in the switch to a readily available and accepted obverse design for mass production.

      Best regards,
      ---Norm
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #18
        Thx Norm for youre input! Its interesting but i dont know anything about this badges
        i see there is a clear different obverse design, if this all clear connectet to deumer. Is there any hollow zinc one exist?

        Comment

          #19
          Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post
          Thx Norm for youre input! Its interesting but i dont know anything about this badges
          i see there is a clear different obverse design, if this all clear connectet to deumer. Is there any hollow zinc one exist?
          Hi PKAlibhaber,

          No, there's no hollow zinc one. In fact there's no hollow KM badge at all except for the earliest U-Boat badges of Deumer and Schickle and these are uncommon. Unlike the Heer, the Kriegsmarine seems to have ordered solid badges from the beginning.

          Doing a quick search here, I see this zinc vertical crimp IAB like the one at the top of thread which was in a Deumer envelope of the same style as the Deumer U-Boat and Minesweeper envelopes.
          http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=582916

          Best regards,
          ---Norm
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #20
            is there any Daisy 2 IAB ever found in such a Deumer packet?

            2 ever found packets marked Deumer with zinc vertical crimp IAB unmarked is a evidence, but a clear proof Deumer made them?

            Comment

              #21
              Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post
              is there any Daisy 2 IAB ever found in such a Deumer packet?

              2 ever found packets marked Deumer with zinc vertical crimp IAB unmarked is a evidence, but a clear proof Deumer made them?
              I don't know. For the U-Boat badges and the Minesweepers there are several examples in the same packets and those badges have the advantage of having identical reverse setups to one another and the Minesweeper matches the Deumer catalog. My life is easier over in Kriegsmarine.

              But I think these Deumer packets are late war (and quite possibly only for private purchase rather than bestowed awards) so it might not be realistic to expect to find an early war badge in one.

              Don't know if this helps (probably just confuses things) but here's a Deumer GAB envelope I found posted in the Packets forum.

              Best regards,
              ---Norm
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                So at least for the U-Boat badge we have pretty good evidence for Deumer's shift to a radically different obverse design.
                Hi Norm, thanks for this information and it certainly supports what we see in the Luftwaffe world when it comes to Deumer switching designs. I guess some could still claim that the early tombak Deumer U-boats might not be made by Deumer since only the zinc ones are found in marked packets, but I know there is quite a bit of good forensic and circumstantial evidence to support their connection.

                No Daisy IAB has ever been found in a Deumer-marked packet to my knowledge.

                On the contrary, I know of at least 4 solid, zinc "Deumer" IABs that have been found in packets. Three of them were the vertical crimp, but a fourth can be seen here with soldered hardware. This is important because it also shows that Deumer was using different reverse hardware setups at roughly the same time period (which goes against the arguement that unmarked badges with different hardware setups were automatically made by different makers). That is not the case if we believe that this IAB and packet were always together.
                Attached Files
                If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post
                  2 ever found packets marked Deumer with zinc vertical crimp IAB unmarked is a evidence, but a clear proof Deumer made them?
                  Not 100% proof in my opinion, because there is always the chance that packets and badges might have been switched. But if we find several different examples with packets, from independent sources then obviously the case gets much stronger the more we find. For me it breaks down like this:

                  1 badge in a packet = no real proof of a connection
                  2 badges in packets = decent proof of a connection
                  3 badges in packets = very good connection
                  4+ badges in packets = 99.9% proof of connection

                  As mentioned above, we know of at least 4 different "Deumer" IABs found in marked packets. Some found in Germany, some found in the US, all by different collectors. So that is pretty darn good evidence to suggest that these IABs were made by Deumer (the odds are very very low that all were switched IMO).

                  Additionally, some "Deumer"-attributed GABs have been found in marked packets, like this example. Importantly, notice the exact same hardware setup as the IAB posted above.......all very good little details that help us connect these badges to one and the same maker.

                  Tom
                  Attached Files
                  If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                  New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                  [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                  Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Thx Tom for all!

                    if 4 packets found its a nice smoking gun on Deumer here! I myself have no problem to believe that this IAB and the GAB shown are made by Deumer. I think they would fit to Deumer in any case.
                    But what i dont understand is the connection to Deumer and the Daisy 2 Badges.

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Hi Husker402......

                      ......Nice IAB. Wonderful shape. I had one like it in my collection, and felt that it showed the finest representation of a K98 out of almost all other IAB designs.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Why Deumer changed Design and of cause also the die so extrem if both IAB Designs belong to Deumer? Why no GAB Design change f.e. `?

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post
                          Why Deumer changed Design and of cause also the die so extrem if both IAB Designs belong to Deumer? Why no GAB Design change f.e. `?
                          They did change their GAB design. Just not as drastic as their IABs or PABs, but the eagle's head and leaf shape changed noticeably.

                          Tom
                          Attached Files
                          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Thanks for the photos on those U-Boats Norm, but IMO, doesn't explain like a damaged die on both Deumer's GAB and IAB. They probably got tired of using the same old design, as probably Juncker did. These were great badge makers (among a many), so using their artistic license to change the "l@@k" of their badge is nothing unusual. Especially Juncker, who's "nickel/brass" IABs all look different.

                            --Ken
                            Last edited by Panzercracker; 04-25-2014, 03:14 PM.

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Originally posted by PKAliebhaber View Post
                              But what i dont understand is the connection to Deumer and the Daisy 2 Badges.
                              Hi PKA,

                              We can start here: please list for me all the makers you know that use this type of catch.

                              Thanks

                              Tom
                              Attached Files
                              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                              Comment

                                #30
                                No sry i will never do, i dont believe this "compare catch/ compare set up stuff"

                                Comment

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