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**90th Light** · 03-24-2014, 07:21 AM

Comparision of the edges

No marks other than the standard die-strike type,

Chris

Attached Files

**Antonio Scapini** · 03-24-2014, 08:39 AM

Souval used some leftover of the war production postwar. On some original pieces he applied the mark "L/58", but badges are original wartime pieces with a post war mak. I think it happened the same for the set up used.

**Thomas Durante** · 03-24-2014, 08:42 AM

Hi guys,

Chris, do you have information of when these vets came back home?

It appears that for the more complicated badges with oddly-shaped edges, Souval used the more conventional die trimming method. They seem to have only used the hand sawn/jig for the badges with smooth sides.

Thanks

Tom

**90th Light** · 03-24-2014, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi guys,

Chris, do you have information of when these vets came back home?

It appears that for the more complicated badges with oddly-shaped edges, Souval used the more conventional die trimming method. They seem to have only used the hand sawn/jig for the badges with smooth sides.

Thanks

Tom

Hello Tom,

all members of 2NZEF (New Zealand Division) had left Italy by Febuary 1946. They were not part of the allied occupation forces in Europe after that date.

Instead many became part of "J Force" and were sent to Japan.

Hopefully this answers your question but if you want specific dates for each battalion then I can get them. Many were home before the end of 1945,

Chris

**90th Light** · 03-24-2014, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Souval used some leftover of the war production postwar. On some original pieces he applied the mark "L/58", but badges are original wartime pieces with a post war mak. I think it happened the same for the set up used.

Here is an original war time one marked "L/58" that turned up locally.

Flat/ Matt type of gold & silver when compare to the post war examples.

No "finish file-jig" marks, just regular die stamp type around the edge,

Chris

Attached Files

**Norm F** · 03-24-2014, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Here is an original war time one marked "L/58" that turned up locally.

Flat/ Matt type of gold & silver when compare to the post war examples.

No "finish file-jig" marks, just regular die stamp type around the edge,

Chris

Hi Chris,

None of the "wartime compatible" Souval KM badges have file-jig marks as far as I know which makes sense since they all have complicated leaf wreath designs.

Regarding the silver-backed L/58 stamped badges like that S-Boat, yes those are likely leftover wartime production but they are likely both stamped and finished circa early 1960's. So far, that quality of gold and silver finish has only been seen on 1960's Souval production. It appears that Souval finished/refinished his leftover "wartime-compatible" badges at least into the 1970's for retail. A couple of threads on the topic:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=souval
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...08#post6102108

Best regards,
---Norm

**mufasa** · 03-24-2014, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Hello Tom,

all members of 2NZEF (New Zealand Division) had left Italy by Febuary 1946. They were not part of the allied occupation forces in Europe after that date.

Instead many became part of "J Force" and were sent to Japan.

Hopefully this answers your question but if you want specific dates for each battalion then I can get them. Many were home before the end of 1945,

Chris

I do not understand of germans badges ... but the Germans surrendered in Trieste to 4th NZ Armoured Brigade May 2, 1944 ( and I think that was one of the areas where the "Anti Partisan Badge" were very numerous (and very dangerous for those who had them on him because of the numerous partisans of Tito they were occupying the city).....

**Norm F** · 03-24-2014, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

In my opinion it is possible that Souval started its BKA production near the end of the war and he continued producing these after the war with the original die (some die flaws in post war badges let me think about the worn down of the original die).

I know, we are again at the same point: how can we be sure of them?
Until today in no way.

But this thread can be another little step forward... I'm quite sure these BKAs can be attributed to Souval with very few doubts.

I think Antonio sums it up nicely there. The BKA (APB) badges go along with all of the rest of Souval's "wartime compatible" production with the same caveats for pieces without provenance.

Not appearing in any vet's groupings would fit fine into the theory of beginning production for the private purchase market in late wartime. They don't appear in the LDO pricelist though from November, 1944 -- don't know if that means production started after that date? Or maybe even meant for official awards but only right near the end and distributed to a region where no vets could receive or keep their badges at the end of the war?

Best regards,
---Norm

**Thomas Durante** · 03-24-2014, 12:02 PM

Hi guys,

Chris, thanks for the additional info regarding your vet finds. Knowing roughly when they came home give us the window of when they could have picked up these badges.

I tend to agree with Norm that the badge with the tiny L/58 mark is likely postwar finished from leftover parts.

Tom

**Norm F** · 03-24-2014, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

I tend to agree with Norm that the badge with the tiny L/58 mark is likely postwar finished from leftover parts.
Tom

They could still have been assembled in wartime and only had the L/58 stamp and finish application in the 1960's --- not that it makes much difference. The reason I say this is there are a lot of early 1960's Souval products with the sharp-cornered hinge and "claw" catch with the same finish, suggesting that he was making new products with that hardware while refreshing his old products in the same finish.

Best regards,
---Norm

**colt45** · 03-24-2014, 12:58 PM

i had a few , the hollow stamped with great detail are nice but shaky

**Antonio Scapini** · 03-24-2014, 01:12 PM

A possibility that make sense to me is that Souval started the production of these badges pre '45; but he produced few as the back die rapidly worn down. We can see the die flaw on the back side in some badges is more pronounced.
So after the war the obverse die could have been used again and they produced badges with solid back (after the war they didn't have problems to conserve metal as during the war)

So the semi-hollow back die could be related to the wartime production and in this case the hardware too is wartime compatible;
the flat back are surely related to the post-war production, set up included.

Attached Files

Listener.jpg (95.4 KB, 288 views)

**90th Light** · 03-24-2014, 02:03 PM

Hello Norm,

thanks for the information. I was not saying that my "RS" E-Boat badge was a veteran brought back badge. What I meant by "picked up locally" was that it came out of a local collection that was sold off here many years ago. I have no real history on that one and have followed what the small "L/58" stamp meant over the years.

When one compares it directly with a known war time examples, it has a lot more in common that many of the post war made examples.

My conclusion has been that it or most of it was in existance before the end of the war either as a complete badge or an almost complete work in progress.

I remember reading some where what Bob Hritz posted that when these "RS" badges were first sold after WW2, they were complete finished badges that were left over. Then finished off nearly completed war time badges were sold. Then put together badges out of war time parts. Then newly made badges from original dies.

There is a lot more war time in my "L/58" RS, E-Boat than post war and if it did not have the small "L/58" on it then it would be acceptable as a nice war time example,

Chris

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Hi Chris,

None of the "wartime compatible" Souval KM badges have file-jig marks as far as I know which makes sense since they all have complicated leaf wreath designs.

Regarding the silver-backed L/58 stamped badges like that S-Boat, yes those are likely leftover wartime production but they are likely both stamped and finished circa early 1960's. So far, that quality of gold and silver finish has only been seen on 1960's Souval production. It appears that Souval finished/refinished his leftover "wartime-compatible" badges at least into the 1970's for retail. A couple of threads on the topic:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=souval
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...08#post6102108

Best regards,
---Norm

**Norm F** · 03-24-2014, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

There is a lot more war time in my "L/58" RS, E-Boat than post war and if it did not have the small "L/58" on it then it would be acceptable as a nice war time example,

Chris

...and if it didn't have the early 1960's finish as well. But I agree, aside from the stamp and the updated finish, the badge itself is "wartime compatible".

Best regards,
---Norm

**90th Light** · 03-24-2014, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

...and if it didn't have the early 1960's finish as well. But I agree, aside from the stamp and the updated finish, the badge itself is "wartime compatible".

Best regards,
---Norm

Thanks Norm,

I fully agree,

Chris

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