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[kraut72]

Ok today "10" badge known,and this wartime made production quantity,this for me absolutely irreal.

into this badge more the faith than the fact

[BobI]

Norm,
Unfortunately when I think of "old collections", I think of guys who have collected for 50 years or more. One guy I know started in 1943!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Thomas Durante]

Unfortunately when I think of "old collections", I think of guys who have collected for 50 years or more.

Indeed, 50 years of collecting is also what I think of when "old time collector" is mentioned. But even a "50 year collector" only goes back to 1965...still 20 years after the end of the war and by most accounts the hayday of reproduction-production by the likes of Rudolf Souval and others And certainly badges produced in the 1960s and 1970s have had sufficient time to collect "believable wear to the finish and nice patina".

Here is an interesting compare to the Souval APBs, they are an almost exact match. Lots of little similar die characteristics that are the same on both badges...although I am not sure they are from the exact same obverse die. Same design though, no doubt about it. Whoever made the Souval APBs (which are by all accounts 100% postwar products) used the same design as these hollow, aka "Light" APBs or vice versa. But which came first??

There is also an obverse die for these badges floating around as well.......

Tom

[Thomas Bendixen]

Ok today "10" badge known,and this wartime made production quantity,this for me absolutely irreal.

into this badge more the faith than the fact

Hi Kraut, what is irreal?

Kr. Thomas

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I was contacted by the owner of one of these Light APBs today. He was kind enough to send me some more detailed photos of the hardware, etc. One of these closeups caught my eye and I think is a critical clue. What do you guys see here?

Tom

[kraut72]

shear marks on the edges

[Thomas Durante]

Hi kraut,

Yes, these marks are the key. However, they are NOT shear marks but rather saw marks where the badge was cut out by hand with a saw. Real shear marks are finer and always perfectly vertical whereas these saw marks are much thicker and angled. A rather odd way of trimming a badge for sure, and something I have only seen on few other badges by none other than.......Rudolf Souval!! Here is one of their Army Flaks with identical saw marks.

To me this makes perfect sense that Rudolf Souval would be the maker of these "Light" APBs. First we have the almost 100% identical obverse design as the Souval APBs as already mentioned in this thread. And now we have identical saw marks on the edges of both badges prove that both were manufactured in the same way.........a way that is rare and different than any other maker I know of. For me, this is proof positive that these Light APBs were made by Rudolf Souval.

So really the only question I have left is when did Souval produce these? The solid-backed Souval APBs are no doubt postwar based on the reverse hardware setup, as well as the Heer Flak with the same saw marks. Were these Light APBs Souval's wartime equivelant? Or did Souval produce both versions after the war simply for postwar souvenier trade??

The best provenance I can speak of is that the gold Light APB I showed previously was alledgedly picked up by David Littlejohn in 1945. I don't know if we can ever confirm that and right now it is word of mouth, but its worth mentioning here and the most tangible link I have seen that puts this type of APB at the end of the war.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Another shot of the saw marks from the postwar Souval Heer Flak showing the diagonal saw marks (not shear marks!).

Tom

[Thomas Bendixen]

Hi Tom, well spotted and I agree that the design and the sawmarks points towards Souval. Will try and find som detailed pics of the catch used on these. When and where did Littlejohn make his statement?

Kr. Thomas

[Thomas Durante]

Thanks Thomas.

Regarding Littlejohn, I was told this information by someone that acquired much of his collection. So it is not first hand information, however I am told that Littlejohn kept a detailed journal of where and when he picked up each badge. In that journal, it allegedly states he picked up this APB in 1945. I haven't seen the journal, and that is all the information I have.

Now, two things come to mind immediately. First, Heukemes mentioned this same APB and Littlejohn journal back in 2005. But at that time, Frank mentioned that the date in the journal was 1950, not 1945! When I mentioned this discrepancy to the current owner of the badge, he said Frank made a mistake and the true date in the journal is "1945".

And this comes to my second question......how do we know any of this is true or accurate? Do we take their word for it that this badge actually dates to 1945? The fact that there was a 5 year discrepancy in the first place makes me a little more skeptical than I already normally am so I can't help but wonder how much of this information we can take at face value. Especially when I see the saw marks on the badge, which we know for a fact is a postwar Souval fingerprint......

Tom

[Norm F]

Especially when I see the saw marks on the badge, which we know for a fact is a postwar Souval fingerprint......

Tom

There are saw marks on some Rettenmaier-attributed flatbacks as well, but I suppose they are in the same grey zone regarding time of production?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

There are saw marks on some Rettenmaier-attributed flatbacks as well, but I suppose they are in the same grey zone regarding time of production

Indeed Norm, same "grey zone". The saw marks on most flatbacks seem to be in small areas to give the badge more definition whereas the saw marks on the Souvals are bigger and they are around the entire outside and inside of the badge. There are some flatbacks that do have larger cuts like Souval, but I am not sure these weren't also produced by Souval (i.e., maybe not all flatbacks are made by Rettenmaier). For instance, there are several different variations of "flatback" PABs (so called "rocky", so called "scooped flatback", so called "dishback", etc.). Most of these different type of "flatbacks" have little or no saw marks on the edges, so perhaps the ones that do have large sawmarks on the edges are really unmarked Souvals rather than Rettenmaiers.

Tom

[90th Light]

I have no bone in this fight about this type of APB being war time or not.

Never had one of that type, never seen one in 40 years of collecting. The Juncker type is a different story.

However, I am intrigued by this new statement that "RS" badges with "saw" marks are all post war.

First off they are not saw marks. According to guys in the metal industry, they are machine finish file mark from a machine like a jig.

Here are two New Zealand veteran brought back "RS" WH flak badges. I can bang on about where these badges were picked up but I will refrain and let the badges do the talking.

One has very faint file/ jig marks. They other has a more prominent file/ jig mark.

Both were made before May 1945,

Chris

[90th Light]

Finishing file-jig marks on pre-May 45 "RS" flak badges,

Chris

[90th Light]

More finishing file-jig marks on a war time badges,

Chris