GAB - Unknown Maker #10

[Hans Kondor]

Hi Hans,

agreed ... i don't believe that all of those IAB you've mentioned were made by Juncker alone.

Your GAB has a much higher chance to be made in Pforzheim than in Berlin.

Hello Andreas,

of course if somebody don't agree that the nickel silver IAB, PAB, or cupal GAB made by Juncker than he could not believe in this one to be made by Juncker also.

By the way, if you could just make a guess without proof, what do you think which type of IAB were made by Juncker? As we know that Juncker designed the IAB in 1939 right? So it must be an early material variant made by Juncker, what do you think which one would be a good candidate?

Are there any kind of material exist which show that each manufacturer on which time joined to product TR awards?

[Andreas Klein]

Hello Andreas,

of course if somebody don't agree that the nickel silver IAB, PAB, or cupal GAB made by Juncker than he could not believe in this one to be made by Juncker also.?

When i comes to this GAB design there is no "believing". It is fact that no one has ever given us a positive evidence that Juncker was the maker of this GAB. It's just one of those "as said so" connections made in the past which isn't questioned anymore.

And it's fact that this design (badge, setup, finish) was found in the past as set by the maker "Carl Poellath, Pforzheim" more than one time.

That's enough for me to give a Pforzheim based maker a higher chance than a Berlin one.

[Thomas Durante]

it's fact that this design (badge, setup, finish) was found in the past as set by the maker "Carl Poellath, Pforzheim" more than one time.

Hi Andreas,

Can you show the other times this GAB was found in a Poellath packet? I am only aware of this one time.

Certainly it should be considered, but I think we can all agree that badges and packets could easily be switched over the last 70 years. But if several of these "Juncker" GABs have been found in Poellath packets, then it would be hard to refute and I agree with you that we would need to relook at the Juncker connection.

Thanks

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Can you show the other times this GAB was found in a Poellath packet? I am only aware of this one time.

I have such a set in my collection since ages coming directly untouched out of the familiy.

Certainly it should be considered, but I think we can all agree that badges and packets could easily be switched over the last 70 years.

Agreed ... it is as easy like putting some stuff in a wooden box labeld Schwäbisch Gmünd or to swear that a certain type of badge belongs to a paper with a maker name on it or came from a specific former LDO shop.

But if several of these "Juncker" GABs have been found in Poellath packets, then it would be hard to refute and I agree with you that we would need to relook at the Juncker connection.

Agreed and at the moment i would relly love to see any link between this design and Juncker ... so far i have only "words" supporting this connection.

[Thomas Durante]

I have such a set in my collection since ages coming directly untouched out of the familiy.

Great! Pictures please.

Agreed ... it is as easy like putting some stuff in a wooden box labeld Schwäbisch Gmünd or to swear that a certain type of badge belongs to a paper with a maker name on it or came from a specific former LDO shop.

This is from multiple independent sources, unlike this single Poellath-packeted GAB. Independent verification from multiple sources makes all the difference in the world. That is why the Rettenmeir connection is so solid.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Great! Pictures please.

Exactly like the one from Sascha ...

This is from multiple independent sources, unlike this single Poellath-packeted GAB. Independent verification from multiple sources makes all the difference in the world.

I think Sascha and i are different independent sources too ...

That is why the Rettenmeir connection is so solid.

[Thomas Durante]

Exactly like the one from Sascha ...

Great! Pictures please

I think Sascha and i are different independent sources too ...

Its certainly possible.

Tom

[Hans Kondor]

Andreas, can you please tell me that are there any kind of material exist which show that each manufacturer on which time joined to product TR awards?

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Hans,

yes and no ... there are several lists (for the IC for example) at which date a certain maker joined the overall production. There are other production rules for certain awards like the WB where a specific production was changed (like brass into iron) and there or global notes when a overall change was made (like zinc instead of tombak).

[Hans Kondor]

Hi Hans,

yes and no ... there are several lists (for the IC for example) at which date a certain maker joined the overall production. There are other production rules for certain awards like the WB where a specific production was changed (like brass into iron) and there or global notes when a overall change was made (like zinc instead of tombak).

Hello Andreas,

so the maker you mentioned that you think made the GAB I posted, do we have information about when this manufacturer joined the production of TR awards, as we know that this design have hollow zinc and what is more important hollow cupal variants also, which could be only made at the beginning of the GAB producton.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Hans,

i have the pictured packet which clearly shows that this maker knew the mentioned design and that this maker was producing the GAB. The Poellath GAB is a massive one with the same setup like yours.

Do you have something similiar for Juncker?

Btw "Cupal" is not a sign for early wartime production. It was a offocial alternative material when war important materials like brass or tombak where declared as war important. So a Cupal combat badge would be more midwar on a timeline.

[Hans Kondor]

Hi Hans,

i have the pictured packet which clearly shows that this maker knew the mentioned design and that this maker was producing the GAB. The Poellath GAB is a massive one with the same setup like yours.

Do you have something similiar for Juncker?

Btw "Cupal" is not a sign for early wartime production. It was a offocial alternative material when war important materials like brass or tombak where declared as war important. So a Cupal combat badge would be more midwar on a timeline.

Hello Andreas,

I dont bother with Juncker right now. I am just want to find out whether the maker you suggest can be a candidate or not.

In my opinion, whoever made this solid zinc badge made the hollow cupal one also, and I think that the same maker made the solid cupal PAB too.
The cupal is not very early used material yes you are right, but the nickel silver should be I think and I think we can be pretty sure that whoever made the cupal solid PAB should made the NS hollow PAB too. Thats why I think that the maker of this GAB must be a manufacturer which started to produce TR medals from nearly the beginning.

If the maker you mentioned, started the production very early too, that I accept it as a possible candidate for this badge, otherwise I am not sure about it.

I am sorry if my text is a bit complicated I am not at home right now and not able to post pictures about the badges I am thinking about, but I guess most of you know these early badges well so you can imagine it.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Hans,

no problem i understand your point very well

My peronal opinion is that this design is some sort of "standard" design and i can't say for sure how many makers used it. It's possible that all of them were made by Poellath but it can be possible too that the cupal one was made by a different maker using the same design.