Factory Panzer "cut-out".

[Michael Everett]

Gents,

I am of the opinion that this Panzer Badge is an original Factory "cut-out" as there is no evidence of file marks to the track portion and the lower wreath.

Your thoughts?

MIKE

[Michael Everett]

Reverse

Reverse

[AndyC]

Well I have never heard of a factory cut out, i have always think that this was made in the field

Andy

[Michael Everett]

Better picture

Obverse

[Michael Everett]

Panzer

Well I have never heard of a factory cut out, i have always think that this was made in the field

Andy

Andy,

I thought the same thing but, given that this badge is original and that there are no signs that indicate that the badge has been tampered with, the Panzer collecting community may have to change their "philosophy" regarding the production of these cut-outs.

MIKE

[Eddie]

Hi Michael,

IMO this is done by jeweler,it was fashion,so someone bought new badge in military store and took it to jeweler.

[Giel VW]

Hi Mike,

I also held this one in Munich. It's just an opinion but here's what I think. Imo there is no such thing as factory cut out badges. The very limited group of men still needing one when badges had to be made out of zink is very small (as we know the cut out panzers have most likely something to do with the Spanish war or the Polish invasion by lack of any specialised decoration for these troops). I agree there are zink pieces with cut outs, but compared to early metal pieces there are much less. The cut also looks very nicely done, clearly someone did put some work in it.

What you also have to know is that the cardboard box this pab lays in is a typical Aurich box, with the horizontal stripe pattern on it.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...ght=aurich+box

I made a thread of this when I was still very young as well:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...ghlight=aurich

Just press in Aurich + box in the search section and you'll see ten more sets like it.

And last but not least it might also be worth saying that the hollow Deumer PAB is not the most attractive PAB, also not the most desirable PAB the latest years. I think if you want to sell one, you'll have a hard time getting 170 euro for it.

This all would make me think this original Deumer PAB might be a victim of its time.

[AndyC]

Its very well done


Andy

[Chet Sowersby]

Mike,
Now that is intresting. Does the badge appear to have been refinished? If it is indeed a factory done example it would be a major scoop in the world of PAB's.

Chet

[Michael Everett]

Panzer

Giel,

Good observations.

1. Once again I must stress, there is no indication what so ever that the grass portion was cut, the original strike did not include the grass portion.

2. The badge is unissued showing no wear although areas of the silver wash are starting to evaporate.

3. To align a particular badge maker with a particular case/box is almost impossible as I think most of us agree that badge producers contracted to a number of different case makers for their supply. Of course there are exceptions due to the actual pin construction which required a very particular insert i.e. GWL, etc.

4. Disagree, as one die-hard WAF Panzer collector has already offered me EURO 500.

MIKE

[Giel VW]

Hi Mike

Cool you want to participate in this discussion, it's a very interesting piece of course!

I wanted to point out that it's just my personal opinion on this one and that when puting all these "could be's" with each other chances drop for me this being a born together set.

I wonder if the production technique for these Deumers would suddenly allow a cut out being part of the die, I'll leave this one to the technical knowledgers. If you could take high resolution pics or scans of your badge, this will be easy to solve, as it should show different flaws then as on the Deumers we are used to see.

Your point 4 is just what I want to prove what happens when you carefully cut out the grass of a less wanted PAB with grass!!!

[Michael Everett]

Points

Giel,

All good points.

Based on empirical photographic evidence, we do know that cut-outs were "produced" during the Third Reich. However, there is no empirical data which indicates that they were ALL done by the soldier and none by the factory. Based on known examples, we are aware that many were "cut-out" due to file marks on the variety of original specimens encountered.

Let's face it, the assumption that all "cuts-outs" were done by the soldier and not by the factory is pure speculation on the part of some "experts". Something written in a reference book without proper "foot notes" does not make it a fact.

Not trying to start a fight here but, there is clearly no evidence to indicate that all cut outs were done by the soldier.

Mike

[Giel VW]

Hi Mike

Thanks for you reply. I'm of course not trying to start a fight here! If you would feel offended I can always edit the thread.

Could you post a picture of empirical photographic evidence showing a factory cut out?

[Michael Everett]

No!

Hi Mike

Thanks for you reply. I'm of course not trying to start a fight here! If you would feel offended I can always edit the thread.

Could you post a picture of empirical photographic evidence showing a factory cut out?

Giel,

Not at all! Please do not edit, you have made a number of very good points.

Regarding the imperical data, I just did! Did you not look closely at the badge at Freising?

MIKE

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Mike, can you take some closeups of the inside edge of the cut area? If it indeed was factory-done, then there should be perfectly up-and-down, straight shear marks like we normally find on the outside edge of the badge.

Thanks

Tom