2 GAB for review

[chrisutter]

2 GAB for review
thanks in advance

[AndyC]

Hi

The one to the right is a unmarked RK


Andy

[Panzercracker]

And the one to the left by Petz Lorenz.

--Ken

[scott3000]

Two good ones

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Chris,

I agree with the others, both look to be fine originals.

Ken, are you sure the one on the left is a P&L? I agree that the design is similar and the lack of cutouts under the swastika are P&L-like, but I don't recall ever seeing a solid-backed P&L before (they are all hollowback, which is logical since P&L's license was taken away in early 1941). Because of that, I would think we are looking at an unmarked Frank and Reif or maybe some other Pforzheim-based maker.

Tom

[Panzercracker]

Hi Tom. I'm curious if P&L could have still made this badge, because you will also find SHuCo marked, solid, zinc based IABs with a 41 date on them. I thought the hollow back zinc based types came later, no? Why for no Frank & Reif marking, which is more commonly found on these solid types? Transitional? --Also note the use of a rectangular baseplate beneath the hinge, which you will find on the early Buntmetal by P&L. F&R marked, solid zinc pieces used this, but a round baseplate as well. So, quite possibly still, a Petz Lorenz product... -And the finish looks to be an earlier "ali", not brennlac.

--Ken

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Ken,

Good point about the ShuCo 41 date.

I think that solid zinc came after hollow zinc production typically. We know of a few instances where this was the other way around, but I would say 99% of the time hollow zinc came before solid zinc production.

Tom

[Panzercracker]

As you know, Frank & Reif came out with a semi-hollow (marked) zinc based GAB, and, they always have a round baseplate beneath the catch. I can't see why they came before the solid type because the solid types continued using the rectangular baseplates from the early Buntmetall run. IMO, the hollowbacks came later than these, because the catch is welded directly to the badge, which is cost cutting and saves time. Production timeline similar to Juncker's wares IMO -without the creation of a new design altogether, which few company's like Juncker could do (on their IAB).

P.S.: I keep thinking Schickle/Mayer and P&L/Frank & Reif

--Ken

[Thomas Durante]

IMO, the hollowbacks came later than these, because the catch is welded directly to the badge

Hi Ken,

Well, we know that P&L started with hollow, tombak production. I don't know of any hollow, zinc P&Ls (probably because they lost their license before the switch to zinc production).

The obverse design of this GAB doesn't match the P&L badges, nor does it match the Schickles/BH Mayers, nor does it match the F&Rs. All of these badges have similar reverse hardware, so its hard to make a connection to any one of these makers IMO.

Tom

[Panzercracker]

Hi Tom. Here's a visual on how P&L/F&R evolved. Note the "doghead" feature and the lack of "cut-out" thoughout. This took time to accumulate, and, I hope the collectors who submitted these examples don't mind me using them to explain. So, we start with the "1st type", a Petz Lorenz manufactured buntmetall GAB. Note the rectangular baseplate beneath the catch on this one.

--kEN

[Panzercracker]

Next is a solid "marked" example. Note the rectangular baseplate on this one too.

[Panzercracker]

Next, a solid marked example, with a round baseplate underneath the catch...

[Panzercracker]

Next, the "semi-hollow" marked example with the round baseplate under the catch...

[Panzercracker]

Last, I couldn't find an F&R hollow zinc example, but when we do, it will fit in nicely where this example by Schickle is... The arrows are there to let others know, that's where the non-cut out area should be... P.S.: Late war hollow zinc examples by some makers are a bittch to find!

[Panzercracker]

BTW gents, best to do these comparisons in "full screen", if you don't want to transpose them onto your desktop etc. etc.

--Ken