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    #1

    FLL CCCs

    Hi guys,

    Some days I really love this hobby! It is amazing what little discoveries are still left to be found, even on such common items like FLL close combat clasps, which are seemingly a dime a dozen.

    Here are two clasps from my collection, what can be so interesting on these?

    Tom
    Attached Files
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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    #2
    Your bottom CCC looks to have its retaining pin "capped" at both ends while the top CCC looks to have its retaining pin "capped" only at one end.

    Comment

      #3
      Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
      Here are two clasps from my collection, what can be so interesting on these?

      Tom
      Hi Tom,

      Forgive me since I'm no clasp expert so maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but looking at your photos I see these two FLL clasps are from different obverse dies.

      Best regards,
      ---Norm

      Comment

        #4
        I would have to go with Norm as I see some differences in the obverse. Details of the leaves are rathers light on the first clasp as well as missing some parts of the inner leaf stem.

        Regards,
        Chris G.

        Comment

          #5
          Hi Tom,

          i would say "FLL" used two different obverse and reverse dies for your two showing clasps.

          The maker mark is for example different.

          Joe
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Atomic; 05-20-2013, 04:51 AM.

          Comment

            #6
            Hi guys,

            Thanks for the replies. Norm indeed hit it on the head, FLL used at least two different obverse dies. While it may seem obvious when you sit two next to eachother like this, I don't recall ever noticing this before and I don't recall anyone ever discussing this. Which is pretty amazing given the fact that FLL clasps are the most common CCCs to be encountered.

            With that said, I think I know the reason for this. The top clasp (First Pattern) is quite rare compared to the 2nd Pattern, I would say on a scale of 20 to 1. I have hundreds of FLL CCCs on file, but only about 8 of them are the first pattern, so a pretty scarce variant.

            The most notable differences I can see are the offset leaf veins on the first pattern (red arrow). The other large difference are the rounded shape of the leaf edges on the first patter, compared with the sharp pointed edges on the 2nd pattern (red circle). The rest of the obverse is nearly identical and I would say likely came from the same master hub.

            Tom

            p.s., the reverse dies are also different as Joe points out. However, the Designers marks are identical as far as I can tell, no difference there. But the FLL maker marks are indeed slightly different. Both are stylized, but the 2nd pattern letters are smaller and fatter.
            Attached Files
            If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

            New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
            [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
            Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

            Comment

              #7
              That´s makes this hobby so interesting.When you have different types of pieces attributed to one comany and you compare the pieces,than can you often find different die "fingerprints".

              Thanks for posting your clasps Tom.Shame that i sell my "FLL" ccc´s in the past.

              When i compare my Deschler ccc`s,i think they was also produced with two different obverse and reverse dies.

              Backplate crimping and set-up is of course complete different.What do you think guys.It is possible to say which clasp is the earlier type (First,Second Pattern)?

              Or is it possible,that the companies pruduced with different dies in the same time?
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #8
                Very cool find Tom!

                Comment

                  #9
                  Given the quantity of FLL that's been available on the market, I think it's fair to say they were among the most common makers that would have been issued to the Soldat in the field. True, the finish tends to evaporate, but still one of the nicer designs, and, most having a good arc to them. Some of the best TR infantry collectibles aren't mint anymore -not by a long shot. Before the finish, the thing that has the most impact, for me, are the die characteristics. If timelines or finishes don't hit the mark, the die surely will.

                  --Rgds, Ken
                  Last edited by Panzercracker; 05-20-2013, 11:37 AM.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Very interesting Tom! Just goes to show how much there still is to learn just from observation. Well done

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Thanks for the feedback guys. Somehow I knew you CCC nuts would find this interesting.

                      Joe, with regards to Deschler, I have studied those as well for quite sometime and cannot find any differences in the Obverse die used. All the veining and even the tiniest of flaws all appear on both types of "Deschler" clasps IMO. If you see some differences, please point them out but I couldn't see any.

                      As far as the reverses go, I believe they did use two different dies. The earlier one has the semi-circular crimps and the most noticable feature is the large oval depression that the hinge sits in (Type 1.7.1, 1.7.2 & 1.7.3 in the CCC book). When they switched to the 1.7.4s is when they changed the reverse die, which included 4 raised tabs as part of the reverse die. These were then punched down with the waffle-like crimping tool. This reverse die does not have the large oval depression for the hinge, so that is further proof of 2 reverse dies in use by Deschler.

                      I feel the progression in the CCC book is accurate. The addition of the 4 raised tabs on the 1.7.4 CCCs is a natural progression by Deschler later in the war to make it easier to punch the backplate firmly. The 1.7.4 CCCs also feature a fluted pin and sheetmetal hinge, which also suggest these were produced later in the war.

                      As far as 2 makers being involved here, I don't think so. Both clasps feature IDENTICAL obverse die. If 2 makers were involved, then I think the dies would be similar, but not IDENTICAL. Also the fact that both types of clasps feature hand-sawing to the swastika area links the two clasps to one single maker IMO.

                      Tom
                      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                      [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                      Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Thank you very much,for your explanation about the "Deschler" ccc`s Tom.Interesting as always,to hear about your work with the ccc`s for me as a collector of them.

                        I can only spot out two points so far,of the obverse die.It can be come from the die process,or the wear out of the die?

                        Regards
                        Joe
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Hi Joe,

                          The areas you point out look identical to me. Perhaps a slight difference in appearance due to a lighter die strike for one or the other?

                          Here is a good closeup from two of my Deschler clasps (one with circular crimps and the other with the waffle crimps). They are identical to my eye. What do you think?

                          Tom
                          Attached Files
                          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
                            Hi Joe,

                            The areas you point out look identical to me. Perhaps a slight difference in appearance due to a lighter die strike for one or the other?

                            Here is a good closeup from two of my Deschler clasps (one with circular crimps and the other with the waffle crimps). They are identical to my eye. What do you think?

                            Tom
                            Hi Tom,

                            i think you are right with the different die strike.Your two Deschler clasps are looking identical.

                            The upper clasp of mine both Deschler clasps have a deeper die.Thats´s the reason why the crossguard are looking thicker and the line in the oak leaf also.

                            Thanks for your time and work Tom.

                            Best wishes
                            Joe

                            Comment

                              #15
                              One more thought. To emphasize my opinion that 2 different firms cannot have IDENTICAL dies, take this comparison between a Deschler clasp and the 6-Dot CCCs. Both share the same obverse design and there is no doubt that these were made by 1 and the same designer and die cutter (like Wissmann for example). It is the "vienna design", which was used by several makers (Deschler, Souval, Hobacher and the 6-Dot maker, whoever he was).

                              The obverse dies of all the makers are 99% the same, however, each maker has a slightly different die. Very small differences in the leaf veining can be seen between these 4 makers. And even when you look close at the area where Joe was pointing out on the Deschler clasps, you can see small differences with the 6-Dot CCC (red arrows). The same goes for Souval and Hobacher clasps; very similar but different enough to see that different dies were used.

                              Tom
                              Attached Files
                              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                              Comment

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