Friends, Romans, Countrymen, LW PAB holders ...

[moranimal]

After doing a little perusing around, I've found a Luftwaffe PAB, and a numbered Luftwaffe PAB, each on a separate dealer's site. Now, it has been my experience and research (the miserable little I've done), that these are at best postwar strikes meant for veterans. At worst ... well, you get the picture.

Is there anyone who believes these to have been made during the war? If so, why, and I mean that in all honesty, i.e. I'm not looking to start a "flame" war. Anyway, I'm all ears on the subject from anyone who has anything to say.

[Prosper Keating]

In view of the absence of answers, let's pose some questions.

If Luftwaffe Tank Battle Badges were made and issued during the war, between their nominal institution on November 1944 and the surrender in May 1945, as some people suggest or even claim, then why do no Hermann Göring Division or Fallschirmjäger armoured unit veterans remember any badges being given out or worn...or even awarded on paper?

Similar questions apply to the LW CCC, numbered LW Ground Combat Badges and the LW Sea Battle Badge. Regarding the latter, why would the Luftwaffe have sent men to sea at a time when the Kriegsmarine was laying up vessels and submarines for lack of fuel, spares and strategic necessity and forming their crews into land-based combat units?

Where is the photographic evidence? Where are the paybook entries?

Just my tuppence-worth. Hope this helps.

PK

[Gene]

According to the two HG vets I knew while I lived in Germany, these never existed. Nor did the LW close combat clasp or numbered ground combat badge.

[Richard]

I will see if I can get a scan of my friend's award entry page in a set of material he received from a LW vet in Germany. The entry in his Soldbuch (or whatever the LW's equivalent is called) has the award entered but the badge he was awarded was the normal panzer badge. It appears that though awards were rendered, no actual badges particular to the LW were ever given out.
Richard V

[moranimal]

Quite correct

Prosper is quite right when he says there is no photographic evidence. I've not seen any, and many others have not either. That's not to say that every picture every created has been seen, but on the other hand, surely one picture would be found somewhere.

The nicest one I ever saw was on ebay, and it was cased as well. I might have even purchased it for up to $75, just because it looked so nice and clean, with good detail. I knew what it was, but still, it just looked good to me. It eventually went for over $300, but I guess if that is what someone really wanted ...

What I can't understand is why dealers would have these on their sites? It seems so obvious to me (and others apparently), but in light of what has been happening lately, I guess it's not unexpected.

[Dez H]

Perhaps it would be appropriate if these dealers were emailed and politely asked to comment on this thread, as to why they think their LW PAB’s are good. I know personally if someone was saying something about me or something I owned I would like the respect and opportunity to respond to the comments. These dealers should also have the decency to stand up here and defend their items.


Regards

Dez

[Yuri D.]

I have a picture of a what I believe is a genuine Luftwaffe Panzer Badge. I will post it onto the forum as soon as I get home tonight.

Yuri

Here are the pictures:

<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/lpab1.jpg>
<br>
<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/lpab2.jpg>

[Yuri D.]

This is zinc badge that has the same construction as the late-war Luftwaffe Ground Combat Badge that we all know and love. This badge is from the Roger Bender collection.

Yuri

[moranimal]

Any comments about Yuri's badge?

To refine my comments, I don't believe the production for distribution of the badge ever existed. Did any pre-production models exist for inspection purposes? Maybe. If someone came out and said that I have such and such documentation that five or ten pre-production models were created, I'd probably go for that. (It's within the realm of possibility.) Would we then believe that hundreds if not thousands were produced, but never distributed? I'll say "very doubtful", although the words Prosper would use would be more forthcoming.

What do you think, Yuri? Do you think this badge is for actual distribution or a pre-production prototype?

Does anyone know who would have been responsible for producing these, assuming that they had the dies? In fact there is another possibility, i.e. the dies were created during the war, but never actually used until after?

OK, let's see if we can move along a little: Does anyone have a marked example of a LW PAB that they believe to be original, and can you post a picture? Maybe we can track something down here.

[Gordon Williamson]

Whilst I wouldn't be in a hurry to spend hard earned cash on a Luft PAB or Seekampfabzeichen, there are certainly precedences for original examples of late war introduced material being around but with no photographic evidence of it ever being issued or worn. Just think of all the SS foreign volunteer collar patches "liberated" from the Dachau works- many for units which never had these insignia issued to them, but nevertheless they were made in the late part of the war, and stored in significant numbers.
Whilst it is generally accepted that none of these awards were ever issued the use of illustrations of them in the relevant Verordnungsblatt shows that at least test strikes were around in late 1944. If the award was approved, which it clearly was, and the dies were there, I can see where some PAB could have been made but never got as far as being issued. As to which of the types in circulation - solid one piece, two piece with two rivets, two piece with three rivets, if any, is most likely to be a valid wartime piece, is anyones guess, with the emphasis on guess as it is almost impossible to prove one way or the other. Its a decision that has to be made by anyone brave enough to consider buying one.

Gordon

[Gene]

I think the posted tank badge exhibits crude detail and material. Going with what I was told by the HG vets I knew, I firmly believe these badges never existed.

[mott5ranch]

I see Prosper's valid arguement. Where are the photos, where are the entries in the Soldat Buch's? However, several texts, some in German, mention that these were approved. They also explain in some that these are rare and one text says none were most likely awarded but probably produced in some number. Hmmmm, makes you wonder, huh? Are there some out there?

I have one like Yuri's. It also came from and old collector, now deceased. This may sound stupid to some of you new guys, but this badge has that........smell. That old unusual smell that these old awards seem to give off. I know that's no proof for many but a few of you know what I'm trying to explain. I have seen the fake ones which do not compare to this one in weight, strength, detail,and........smell.
I know I will catch hell for the smell remark......but hey, does the smell, ring a bell, or will I catch hell?

[Frank Mills]

*

****

[Perry Floyd]

Ron Wolin allways has a Luft. PAB for sale. It's amazing how he keeps pulling these out of the woodwork......

[mott5ranch]

Perry,
Does he keep pulling them out of the woodwork or is it the same one he can't seem to move? Where is this guy's site? I've never heard of him. thanks.