New Addition - Possible maker connection - Rettenmaier = "Flatback" Maker

[Graeme]

Would be great to see

I have L/21 marked wound badges with very similar set up, but mine are right facing

cheers
Graeme

[Thomas Durante]

Thanks Graeme, thats a beauty!

Tom

[fischer]

Hi Guys

Lots of possibilities and lots of questions...

BTW, great looking Broken Stem examples posted by both Tom and Graeme...
I am envious and still searching for one of these bronze beauties.

Since we are showing these variant catch examples; I figured we needed a silver grade in the mix.

Best regards, fischer

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I agree with both Tom and Graeme, that Rettenmaier is a good candidate but that we don't yet have definitive proof, or enough burden of proof in the way we do for S&L unmarked badges.

Here's a Rettenmaier BWB that uses the same "Pforzheim-P" catch although rightward facing instead of left. There's a a tally of wound badge makers using this catch in this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=524956
and as noted there and re-iterated by Tom here, there was a preponderance of Pforzheim makers represented.

As discussed in the other threads for which Tom provided links, based upon the obverse designs of the KM badges (including the U-Boat with pin system like Rettenmaier's EK1), I've always felt the flatback maker was either a Pforzheim maker who carried on in business after the war or Rettenamaier over in Schwäbisch-Gmund whose business also survived the war. Furthermore, whichever it was, based upon the range of quality, I suspect the flatback maker carried on assembly and possibly production after the war for the souvenir and replacement market, in the same manner as S&L and Souval.

For now, it's tempting to dub the maker "Flattenmaier"...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Nick Carraway]

I have correspondence from Frank Heukemes that the gray back heeresflak hoarde find was in Schwabisch-Gmund. Interesting in that the flat back and gray back have the same obverse.

[wehrpasswilly]

Think I've got the same left handed facing catch in one of my BWB's (which may or may not be mm)

Checked ALL my wounds, my bad sorry, got plenty with the same clasp but all right facing (including 3 silvers - one being a L/21) - only right facing BWB I have is an L/56 with a shepherds crook clasp.

[Andreas Klein]

According to Frank Heukemes, the Rettenmaier firm was going through bankruptcy and one of the items found in their stocks was a "flatback" GAB!

Hi Tom,

Frank told us that ÜÜ stands for a crown representing 5 Vienna based makers .... a story is not a proof.

Anyway you will find catches which are open to the leht side on badges from Funke&Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid and Heubach&Co, Oberstein. It has nothing to do with a fingerprint of a certain firm .... it depends on the human beeing who soldered the catch on the badge.

[Hans Kondor]

Finding a rettenmaier wound badge with this kind of catch would be a good start, I am not say that exact catch as Graeme, because in my opinion this type of fitting is used only on solid zinc badges so we won't find this exact catch & catch plate on a EKI for example.

My problem is that I haven't seen a Rettenmaier EKI with "Pforzheim-style" catch turning on the left side. Also we have to encounter more variant with this catch on flatback GABs, PABs too.

[BassD]

.... it depends on the human beeing who soldered the catch on the badge.

can't more agree about this statement.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Tom,

Frank told us that ÜÜ stands for a crown representing 5 Vienna based makers .... a story is not a proof.

Anyway you will find catches which are open to the leht side on badges from Funke&Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid and Heubach&Co, Oberstein. It has nothing to do with a fingerprint of a certain firm .... it depends on the human beeing who soldered the catch on the badge.

Hallo Andreas, thanks very much for your input. I completely agree 100% that a story is not proof. Frank's speculation on the 5 Vienna based makers was based on an eye witness account, that happened to be completely wrong, so for sure we should always take ANY story with a grain of salt. I think you will agree though that such stories are worth mentioning in the discussion, becuase there is also the chance they are 100% correct and factual. Like anything else, it is one piece of a much larger puzzle.

I also agree with you and Basti that left-facing catches are a symptom of the human worker doing the soldering. However, we can all agree that the worker is part of a firm, so in essence it very much could be the signature of a certain firm. Out of hundreds of badge makers active during the Third Reich, we only have a handful of badges with a left-facing catch (F&BL, ShuCo & Rettenmaier). I have a feeling there were probably a few more in there that we are forgetting, but still only a small fraction of all the firms active in badge production. The fact that we see these left-facing catches with only a small handful of firms is precisely why it is an important link and should not be overlooked.

Don, excellent silver "flatback", gorgeous finish. Thanks very much for showing and adding to the discussion.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Finding a rettenmaier wound badge with this kind of catch would be a good start, I am not say that exact catch as Graeme, because in my opinion this type of fitting is used only on solid zinc badges so we won't find this exact catch & catch plate on a EKI for example.

AGREED! We rarely see a catchplate used with EK1s since the base metal was higher quality than these zinker IABs used. They didn't need a plate, however the zinc IABs demanded it. Different construction techniques for different base metals.

My problem is that I haven't seen a Rettenmaier EKI with "Pforzheim-style" catch turning on the left side. Also we have to encounter more variant with this catch on flatback GABs, PABs too.

It would certainly be great to find a Rettenmaier EK1 with P-style catch facing the left side, but the fact that other Rettenmaier EK1s have left-facing catches proves that someone in that firm was left handed...or preferred left facing catches. So much so that Rettenmaier is sort of well-known for their left-facing catches, so it is a very good link. It simply could be that the left-handed worker that put on the IAB catches didn't happen to be working on the EK1s with p-style catches at the same time. For instance, if the EK1s with p-style catches are early production (say 1941) but the EK1s with left-facting c-catches were later production (say 1944, at the same time as when the IABs were being produced). Who knows? The only thing we can say for sure is that Rettenmaier was one of a few very firms that feature left-facing catches.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

I have correspondence from Frank Heukemes that the gray back heeresflak hoarde find was in Schwabisch-Gmund. Interesting in that the flat back and gray back have the same obverse.

Nick, that is a VERY interesting piece of info! As I mentioned in my first post, I thought the greybacks and flatbacks were connected to the other flatbacks, but I didn't know that there was a tangible link like this to a hoard find in Rettenmaier's hometown, thanks very much for sharing it.

Can you elaborate on what Frank said? Was there anything else found in the hoard?

Thanks Nick!

Tom

[BassD]

... However, we can all agree that the worker is part of a firm, so in essence it very much could be the signature of a certain firm....

Tom

YES a worker is a part of firm. But don't forget the homeworkers wo do this special work for several firms.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

A little more interesting information, Nick has been studying the Heeresflak badges and realized that the "flatback" and "greyback" flaks share the exact same obverse die. Not just the same design, which was shared by several different makers.....but the same exact obverse die!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post5631825

This is significant in the context of this thread because it suggests that the "flatbacks" and the "greybacks" were made by one and the same maker. What also makes this significant is that a hoard of "greyback" flaks were allegedly found a few years ago in an old building located in none other than Rettenmaier's home town of Schwabish Gmund!!


There was also a "greyback" flak in Colorado's vet find, from the American vet that ended the war in the Stuttgart/Pforzheim area:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=524956

So where does all this leave us? Many little tantalizing clues that possibly lead to Rettenmaier. Not enough to be conclusive though, but the search continues for the missing link.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

One last interesting compare of a "flatback" GAB and PAB to a Rettenmaier-marked EK1.

Notice a common feature on all 3 of these?

Tom