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**Luftm40** · 08-29-2004, 10:24 AM

I've never liked them because (to me) they have a cheap look and feel compared to the solid types. Thats just a preference though. I think some people feel that a stamping is easier to reproduce than I die casting

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 08-29-2004, 10:25 AM

...I'm NOT afraid of them

Pieter.

**Mike Kenny** · 08-29-2004, 10:40 AM

Hi,

Hollow backs are reproduced like everything else but I certainly wouldn't shy away from a badge simply because it was hollow-backed! I'd have thought they were actually SAFER as for a hollowback a reproducer has TWO sides to accurately reproduce via casting, or two dies to accurately reproduce. I'd've thought SOLID badges would be much easier to reproduce - which tends to be what we see - more solid backed repros than hollow backed. I do prefer earlier high quality hollow backs with a certain hinge/pin/catch construction though.

Regards
Mike K

**Pascal H.** · 08-29-2004, 10:47 AM

Mmmmm, I think most of the armshields are hollow backed aren't they?

.

KR
Pascal

**Lorenzo Brown** · 08-29-2004, 11:36 AM

I would think that a modern day faker would lean toward "Hollow-stamped" badges. The process of stamping out pieces from sheet metal would be much faster and cost efficent that the "molting/heating, pouring, cooling and finishing" processes required for die-casting and die forging. I would think that a faker could produce many more high quality hollowback badges in a shorter period of time.

I doubt that the cost of making the dies would be significantly more since, once you have made the obverse die, you just need to "mirror" that to create the reverse die. Even so, the speed and cost effectiveness of stamping would probably outweigh any additional die production costs.

**VonLuger** · 08-29-2004, 12:46 PM

I'm very comfortable with people afraid of hollow PAB's, reduces competition for the serious collector

Though Shall Not Enlighted Those With Out Light Bulbs

**BobI** · 08-29-2004, 12:54 PM

Over the last 25 years I have purchased many,many hollow back PAB from vets or their family! I like them so send them to me

!
Bob

**Marc Garlasco** · 08-29-2004, 01:11 PM

Here is my fake

My fake - now I know what to look for so no problem. Followed by my Daisy, who I love!

Marc

THE 2-dot fake (I have been schooled)

My VERY GOOD Daisy

- proof there are great hollow-backs out there:

**Don D.** · 08-29-2004, 03:18 PM

Marc, that is a 2 dot fake, not the BLOB. Notice the 2 dots in the grass just above the bottom of the wreath.
Don

**Greg** · 08-29-2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by ddoering

Marc, that is a 2 dot fake, not the BLOB. Notice the 2 dots in the grass just above the bottom of the wreath.
Don

Marc,
The "blob" is on this thread, just look at the one marked COPY and a bronze one later in the thread. Called "blob" because what is supposed to be the coaxial machinegun (round area to the left of the gun tube, looking at the front) is real "blobby" on this fake.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=blob

Regards,
Greg

**Philippe DB** · 08-29-2004, 03:35 PM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all comments so far. I whish I had the production knowledge to discuss in detail what would be the easiest badge to reproduce the hollowback or the solid variant but sadly enough I don't so I can only hope anybody familiar with these two techniques can enlighten us some more.

I think before we continue it is necessary to make the distinction between the two types of hollowbacks produced during the Third Reich period.

1. Hollow buntmetall badges

It is my believe that hollow buntmetall badges were the earliest produced awards. As far as I'm concerned every IAB, GAB and PAB ever made started it's career as a hollow buntmetall variant. The companies responsible for their production were only a hand full which also explains the limited number of different designs. In contradiction with there zinc brothers early hollow buntmetall badges have a unique design which leads me to believe that the companies involved in their production were big enough to have employed there own designers.
A design that ones exited as a hollow buntmetall badge almost always will evolve in to a solid or hollow zinc variant.

2. Zinc hollow badges

IMO the only reason of existence of these badges was pure material and cost efficienty. I don't want to speculate if they should be placed before or after the massive zinkers. I think both are possible altough it is interesting to note that companies who were involved in hollow buntmetall production most of the time continued with hollow zink production and never produced any solid zink variants. On the other hand companies that started badge production with solid zink examples and switched to hollow zink production are extremly rare and in the few cases they exist I'm really not sure if their hollow production preceded their solid production.

For me as a collector there is a big difference in terms of desirability between the hollow buntmetall badges and the hollow zinc badges.

Hollow buntmetall badges for me represent the best of what German badge production had to offer. Not only in terms of the high quality of materials used to make them but also in terms of craftmenship to design them, fit them with their reverse hardware and finish them. These badges were produced at the peak of the Tird Reich "glory" and only the best was just good enough to honor the troops that occupied most of Europe.

This long intro only to come to my point in relation to the question " Is there a reason to be afraid when it comes to hollow badges"

As far as I'm concerned there isn't certainly not when we look at these early Buntmetall hollow badges. The quality of these badges is just so good that even the best attempts to copie them are still miles away from the real thing. Although some of them might fool you when you only have a picture to go on once you have a chance to handle them they will fail the comparison with the originals.

The same can be said about hollow zink badges but here you have to look at it the other way arround. Most hollow zink badges are of poor qaulity, purely made to save costs and material. An original worn hollow zinker is a pitifull thing to look at or to handle certainly when you are familiar with the high quality of there buntmetall predecessors. And here the fakers are in trouble again. The modern material and finish used to make these copies is just to good and they also won't survive a direct comparison with the originals.

So to make a long story short I really don't think that there is any reason to be afraid of hollow badges be it buntmetall or as zinc variants. Just do your homework, try to familiarize yourself with the very limited ammount of early buntmetall variants of IAB's GAB's and PAB's. At the latest when the first original hollow buntmetall badges arrives in your collection you will hit yourself on the head because you didn't pay more attention to this type of awards before.

Finaly just one word of advice. Every good story has to have a catch I suppose. Be very carefull when it comes to the BH.Mayer IAB's. Although I don't have any problems with the marked (L/18) I do beleive that there exist very good copies of that IAB but untill now I never had the opportunity to handle the specific example I have doubts about.

KR
Philippe

**Tom Yanacek** · 08-29-2004, 03:42 PM

Hello to all,

I have always preferred the solid type assault badges over the stamped ones so I have tended to collect the solid types more than the stamped types. I do have some stamped ones in my collection though, and I am always willing to buy more if the price is right and provided they're real of course.
Best regards! Tom

**Philippe DB** · 08-29-2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by tyanacek

Hello to all,

I have always preferred the solid type assault badges over the stamped ones so I have tended to collect the solid types more than the stamped types. Tom

Hi Tom,

Although you didn't specify if your hollow badges are zinkers or buntmetall variants I guess most of us will see the same thing when they look at their collection.

Certainly when it comes to early buntmetall badges there is a simple explanation. Try to find one. IMO no more than 5% of what's on offer are genuine buntmetall hollow badges. Hollow zinkers are easier to find but these for me to are less attractive then their solid counterparts.

KR
Philippe

**Bruce Simcox** · 08-29-2004, 05:13 PM

Hi Philippe......

......when you mentioned B.H. Mayer you failed to mention which of the variants held concern for you. Zinc or tombak? Or something else? Please clarify. Thanks.

By the way......I don't have any reservations collecting hollow-print badges.

-------------------------

Bruce

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