S&L IAB with cutout swastika?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Anyone else see this S&L IAB on Jamie's update this afternoon? First time for me seeing one of these with a cutout swastika. Looks legitamate, with the finish being on the inner arms.

I was going to go for it because it appears to be a rare variant that I have never come across before, but the more I looked at it the more I didn't like what I saw. The obverse seems very pourous to me, not what I would expect to see on an original S&L badge, even these supposidly later-war cast pieces. Furthermore, this is supposed to be a late-war type of IAB, so its hard to believe they would take the time to hand file out the swastika (that is more of an early wartime feature IMO).

On the other hand, the hardware looks pretty believable, so I am not sure what to think with this one. Could be a legitamte wartime example, or it could even be a typical S&L badge that someone filed out and refinished. Or it could be a flat-out reproduction.

What do you guys think?

Tom

[Panzercracker]

He's managed to pull some rare rabbits out in the past, but the finish leaves me to ponder. The exposed areas of zinc on the back look a bit too uniform (scratched out?), and not quite "right" for the kind of wear pattern I'm used to seeing on a combat worn piece. Then again, cleaning can distort the natural look of wear from the finish. The cut-out looks to be done by hand, and not machine, from what I see of the light curvatures, front and back the swas.

--Rgds, Ken

[Jean-Claude]

Hi Tom

Out of my depth here again but to me if "customized" panzer assaults (with cut out swaz and grass removed) are OK then this one doesnt look so outlandish to me...Possibly just a soldier
with jeweller or machinist background killing time by making his badge a little special/personal
The big question is to determine wether basic badge is original or not

JC

[AndyC]

It looks strange with different thickness of the swastika arms


Andy

[Dave_B]

Dealer claims it is a factory cut out, why would they ruin the left wing tips on the eagle to manufacture this badge? If it's real, it's been damaged in my opinion and should be priced accordingly.

I'm a novice at this...Is it normal for the oak leaf stem not to continue past the rifle stock ?

[Eric N]

Hi Tom,

Hans N (in a different thread) has pointed out the missing vein in the oak leaf and Dave B has hit on it in the last post, too. I am thinking the entire badge is no good, but maybe its just a thick refinishing to cover the tampered with swaztika.

Would like to see this in-hand. The crimped set-up looks legit. Still a ?

Regards,
Eric

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Maybe I am seeing things, but I do see a vein in the leaf right above the rifle butt. Its not very distinct and hard to see, but I think that is due to the particular wear to the finish on this particular example. But I think it is there.

And if it is not there, does that necessarily make it a bad badge? It seems to me that if a faker would go through the trouble of making a very good, cast fake (like this could be), then why would the mould not pick up the vein in this one leaf, but yet is 100% accurate on the rest of the badge? I don't see how that is possible. To me, if the vein is not really there, then I would tend to think that it was some type of production mistake (maybe a clogged die), rather than to say it is a fake. Especially if everything else looks spot on regarding the rest of the obverse details and also the reverse hardware setup, which looks very good on this example. If this is a fake, then the fakers have come a long way at replicating this type of reverse hardware setup because it looks VERY good to me.

Tom

[Dave_B]

An answer to my own question..., I have found another unmarked S&L without the continuing vein by the rifle stock.

https://www.emedals.com/Pages/Direct...s.aspx?id=5082

Dave

[Hans N]

Hi Tom,

Hans N (in a different thread) has pointed out the missing vein in the oak leaf and Dave B has hit on it in the last post, too. I am thinking the entire badge is no good, but maybe its just a thick refinishing to cover the tampered with swaztika.

Would like to see this in-hand. The crimped set-up looks legit. Still a ?

Regards,
Eric

Indeed i did Eric but you forgot to mention the lack of the flaw on the reverse of the rifle butt that i also mentioned.

[Eric N]

Hi Hans,

I cannot see either the vein in the oak leaf (Tom has better eye sight than me) or the flaw on the reverse of the rifle butt as you point out. Perhaps as suggested, it has to do with the heavy finish obscuring these features. I agree that the crimped-in hardware looks to be good. It does not make sense to me to see a factory cut-out swaz on a zink badge (unless it is a field modification).

Certainly too many doubts and one not for me.

What about the one in the link that Dave posted?

Still learning with these.

My best,
Eric

[Patrick W]

When I looked at the price I didn't like what I saw.....

His prices for basic and common war badges have become ridiculous although occasionally he does get a rare piece that he underprices

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Well, I "think" I see a faint vein in the leaf, but its obscured a bit by the fading finish.

Ofcourse there is the possibility that I've gone right out of my mind too

The emedals IAB does indeed look to not have a vein in this leaf, so perhaps this is a legitamate variant we have not noticed before (like the Deumer IABs??).

Tom

[Graeme]

Hi Tom

From those pics, the hardware looks good, but the details do not look as good as on most I have seen. Maybe the badge had a hard life? It is one of those badges you need to check close up to gain a better feel for it. Maybe a couple of angled shots would help so we can see areas like the underside of the rifle butt, that circular mark looks a little strange.

I certainly would not pay a premium for the cutout. It, imo, was likely made after manufacture.

I am sure we have seen this badge, or another similar badge with cut out in the past. I may have it on file, but can't check for a couple of weeks.

best regards
Graeme

[Hans N]

The same badge was up for sale at the same dealer 5 years ago (2007)

[Graeme]

Hi Hans

Cheers for the reminder

I knew I had seen something "similar", and suspected it was the same place

regards
Graeme