Original or Post War Fake Medals & Badges

[Edward]

Hello,

After looking over the badges and medals forums I have a question regarding authenticity. Could anyone please tell me if there is the possibility that at least some badges of quality displayed and noted as original on these forums are not? Also, is it possible since the end of the war almost 60 years ago that at least some reproducing such items have done so to exact standards, to include the containers they come in? I do not collect such items, and am not asking this question with any agenda or desire to start an inflammatory thread. However, over many years I continue to see a not unsteady stream of well made pieces of various types. I realize that such pieces come from a variety of sources, but statistically it seems interesting to see what appears to be a never ending conrnucopia of such items. Any reply would be most appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Regards

[Tim B.]

Hi Edward,

Is there a "possibility" that some of these pieces are fake/reproduction--sure, of course!

Every 3rd Reich item ever made has been reproduced to some extent for aftermarket sales, even immediately following the war. Some feel that legitimate wartime manufacturers continued to make pieces during the occupation period for sale to occupying forces and souvenior hunters even then. Original dies, tooling and stamps just didn't disappear at war's end, nor did left-over stock material.

Some believe in these so-called laser-cut reproductions made today that are so accurate, while others feel that no matter how many times they copy something, they still miss one or two minor details and will never get things 100% correct. That's why most, at least those collectors just starting out, like to stay with pieces that are maker marked with known die characteristics that they can verify. Of course, as time and technology advances, the fakes are surely getting better and closer to originals. Even our own forum helps that process to an extent with all the detailed photos and decriptions called out. So, eventually...who knows just how it will affect collecting as a whole, collection values, and future markets if you can't tell the differences anymore?

A couple things in our favor are that some of the processes and raw material used back then are not available or hard to duplicate today in our "modern" world, so things are made different-in some cases better-than original period pieces made 60-70 years ago. Good references, experience handling both originals and fakes, coupled with sharing thoughts and observations with other collectors here, can really make the difference between owning a pile of sh!t or something really worthwhile IMO.

Hope that kind of answers your question.
Tim

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Edward,


I think Tim's written a fairly good reply to your question. If you, or anyone else, sees something that they think is fake or questionable, then by all means point it out or ask questions to highlight your concerns - that's what this forum's here for! Even with all the good reproductions though, if you know what you are doing you can normally avoid them.

One other thing to keep in mind is that in a COLLECTORS forum like this, you are NOT going to see a true statistical indication of rarity or quality. Places like this concentrate what we collect and many preferentially people post their "good" or "rare" stuff. The same goes for dealers to a certain degree, who serve a purpose in that they are a focus point for what we collect. If you look outside our "little" circle of collectors/dealers, there's relatively little available from other sources (eg eBay - even with the ban, flea markets, garage sales, antique shops, etc) and even then it's the more common items.

Regards
Mike K

[Edward]

Hello Tim & Mike,

Thank you both for taking the time to answer my questions...informative and much appreciated. Maybe I will restart collecting badges again.

Regards

[Al Haag]

Edward.

When I started collecting in 1958, there were already many copies around. Some of these were sold at that time as good copies. Some were very bad quality, but some were very, very good. They were mostly cheap to buy because there were not too many collectors then. They included Iron Crosses, cloth eagles, SS cuffbands and many, many collar tabs of all types. Things with wolf heads and tiger heads and other fancy designs. I have seen some of these for years being now called originals, because everyone thinks that they are. The young collectors sometimes do not know the real from the old copies.

Albert.

[Larry Lipps]

Recently my brother-in-law was showing me a new machine he just purchased for his company. He owns a gun grip maunfacturing company. The machine he purchased is a laser scanner that he uses to make copies of handgun frames so he can do design and display work without actually having to work with the actual firearm. The scanner scans a pistol grip turns it 10 degrees and scans it again. It does this until it's completed a 360 degree circle. The software then overlays all the scans and produces a perfect 3D image. Then a computer controlled machine carves the exact duplicate out of a piece of graphite. While I didn't get to see the rest of the process, the graphite block is then somehow electrically used to make a steel mold that will produce a pistol frame that is within 2/100000 of an inch of the original. He told me that it costs between $10,000 and $20,000 to make a mold, so it's not something you do just to make one item.

I found this so fascinating, that I talked him into scanning a wound badge and engrave the image into a graphite block. Every scratch, every pebble, was perfect. To the limits that my caliper was able to measure, the measurements were the same. The next time we visit, I'm going to take my camera to get some photos. The technology is amazing! While I realize that having a graphite block is a long way from producing the product, if fakers aren't currently interlacing original and fake items, someday they will be.