Egghead IAB's possibly maker

[Dietrich Maerz]

In the last years so much progress has been made on the field of research about these badges and orders!

This is due to people who compared designs, dies, pin systems and also due to the people who dug up the documents and who studied them.

Both is extremely important and nothing would be more wrong if one "side" tells the other that they are wrong, egoistical, self-righteous or whatever since both are sometimes right and both are sometimes wrong.

As much as we know that not every company made their own dies and pins systems, as much do we know that not every company was obeying the written rules and regulations.

Both "schools" are important, interesting, productive and absolutely necessary! Nothing would be more wrong than to have a fight between the two sides, leading possibly to ignorance of evidence of either side - which would be a dramatic mistake.

I value personally value Tom's approach as much as I value Andreas'. In some instances I tend to agree more to the "sceptical document" side - might be the German in me. On the other hand I certainly know the value of forensics from my studies and defend them with all intensity! However, every "finding" or "naming" should be done with a very high degree of factual evidence which holds up under reasonable scrutiny! If not, it is just a thesis or an unproven opinion.

Arguments, that some people cannot understand German documents correctly despite being a German with a normal functioning brain, or conclusions based on smell, taste or one example only are often wishful thinking or defensive measures. But even that can lead to great discoveries - if it is only to show some of these people how wrong (or maybe even right) they are.

As always in life I think it needs to be such that we take the best of both "schools", be critical of both and learn with both. And we know one thing: we all want the same - the truth! But it should be more than just an assumption of the truth and sometimes it takes patience and also the guts to say "I don't know what maker made this badge!" What is wrong with that statement?


Dietrich

[Graeme]

Its snide comments like this that make people shy away from posting their thoughts and opinions. If you would put your ego aside and realize that not everyone agrees with your line of thinking, WAF would be a friendlier place. At least when Andreas argues a point, he does it professionally and respectfully, but comments like yours add nothing to the conversation other than a back-handed slap that those of us that don't agree with you are not serious collectors.

If you don't feel comfortable calling these badges Brehmer, then so be it. But realize that others don't agree with you, and that should be OK too. Just because there isn't 100% consensus doesn't mean we are wrong or aren't "serious collectors". There are still guys that believe the Rounder RKs are wartime originals, even though most of the collecting community knows they are bogus. Just because there is no consensus doesn't mean the rounders aren't fakes...

Tom

Tom

You really have misinterpreted my comment, and in the process, been quite slanderous. Totally unjustified imo. We have PMd each other but I would like to put my view across here and reply to all your points.

Firstly here is the reply I gave you regarding my initial comment to Basti

""serious collectors" comment. When I made that comment I did not have you or others specifically in mind at all. I was more concerned with Basti's comments that he was being laughed at, and I had heard in the past that he was not taken too seriously by you know who on another site. So all I wanted to do was reassure him so that he would continue contributing. I do not research the areas he does but if once in a while he finds something for us that is great. "

I think WAF is a friendly place, and I can think of other forums where we would not be able to have such a free debate.

I think if you look at my replies in threads, you will see that I am respectful, as in the comments I have already made in this thread. See quote below:-

**"Somehow I do not think the progression you mentioned is that clear cut. The ones you labelled later war and known to have been found in Deumer marked packets, certainly have an association with Deumer, but the earlier different design (what used to be nicknamed 2nd pattern Daisy), the proof as far as I remember was not conclusive to link to Deumer.
It could be that you do have all variants nailed correctly, but I do not think all the evidence is in place yet."**

If you look at my comment above you can see that I state my point, I confirm the connection with Deumer with the packet, and mention something was inconclusive. I go on to say that maybe you do have all the variants nailed down, but that I do not think the whole evidence is there..

I dont think I have an ego or the other crap you mentioned. I agree with what I feel are accurate statements and disagree with areas that I feel are woolly. That is all I do.

Now finally, let us address the point of putting makers to "unknowns". In some cases I am not saying that you are wrong in your assumptions, you may be right, but my view is that there is not enough evidence at times to actually say "Lets call this unknown such and such". I do feel a lot of the evidence put forward is flimsy, and also that rather than finding some new evidence that immediately matches a particular maker, the gaps in evidence are being looked for, which puts a different slant on things, because you start to get square pegs squeezed into round holes.
In the past when a maker was uncovered, quite often full consensus, or a pretty watertight connection was made, before everybody and their dog, along with dealers, started to use those names. We now have a situation where some guys like yourself are using newly discovered names, and there are others that are unhappy with that. But now we are getting dealers using all these newly discovered names also. So it is not such a clear case of saying you call them unknown and we call then by the new names.

regards
Graeme

[Graeme]

Hi Bruce,

Its very simple, Graeme is saying that I am not a serious collector. Apparently, if I don't agree with his line of thinking, then I and others that agree with me are not serious collectors. That comment is the epitome of self-righteousness.


Tom

Tom

That is absolute nonsense, I never stated that at all.

Of course you are a serious collector, maybe too serious, If you are spouting that mumbo jumbo

regards
Graeme

[Dietrich Maerz]

During research for my current book I was stumbling on this advertisement in the December 1940 issue of the magazine "Schwert und Spaten" - an indispensable resource if one really wants to follow the developments for orders and medals.

What struck me as very odd is this: there are names of companies which I have so far not seen realted to any badge, medal or order manufactur. Sure, some could be manufacturers of party or Winterhilfswerk badges, but some - just like Heinrich Vogt, a metal wares shop in Pforzheim, could also have produced dies or badge parts or even complete badges as a sub-supplier.

Heinrich Wanderer in Gablonz announces that he makes orders and I am sure he did when he said so.

I really think that in the light of many such advertisement it would be very wise to be very careful to assign only names out of the pool of known makers to previously unknown badge types. This might be completely wrong. These guys made something related to our subject here!

Dietrich

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Dietrich,

all at all there are 12 of those ads all are mentioning different firms. It was done to official announce the quality of german awards and respected award makers.

A similiar think was done local in Lüdenscheid showing (named quality of Lüdenscheid) Lüdenscheid award makers and we have the same here: many many makers not know so far.

[Graeme]

I really think that in the light of many such advertisement it would be very wise to be very careful to assign only names out of the pool of known makers to previously unknown badge types. This might be completely wrong. These guys made something related to our subject here!

Dietrich

Hi Dietrich

I think you make a great point here

Thanks for posting that great advert, very interesting

best regards
Graeme