Modified PAB in Wear - Rare!?

[Greg]

Dear PAB fans,

Just a little insight from a tank veteran's standpoint. I think Philippe's idea that panzer vets may have used the cut-outs as a mark of separation from the new recruits, a sign of "elitism" so to speak, is very plausible. Romantic? Maybe, but veteran soldiers DO do romantic things to show their unit esprit de corps. I also find it entirely plausible that a whole unit (even at panzer regiment level) would or could have this done by the workshop company mechanics.

I would only add just a grain of caution on trying to get definitive information from the vets themselves today. Please don't take me wrong - I have the utmost respect for veterans of any formal military service. But we're human beings, and memories fade. I have enjoyed a correspondence and phone calls for several years with a veteran of schwere SS-PanzerAbteilung 101/501 and have learned a lot of interesting anecdotes from his experiences, but I think it's asking a little too much for me to expect him to remember exactly what his tanks and awards looked like.

30 years ago when I was into tank modelling, I corresponded with several German vets and I was surpised when they couldn't remember all the details of their tanks' paint, markings, etc. Later on when I was a tanker myself I realized that those kinds of details may not be real important to the soldier. I can't tell you now what the camoflage patterns and markings looked like on my tanks 10-20 years ago without looking at the photos, and I durn sure can't say what makers marks (if any) are on my medals and badges!

This is not to detract at all from Philippe's theory; I think it's "Kool," I just think we need to dig up more evidence. Happily, with enough of us looking, I'm sure we'll find something else out.

Regards,
Greg

[Philippe DB]

Dear Greg,

There for sure is a lot of truth in what you just wrote. For the once amongst us that left school over 20 years ago try to remember what you first girlfriend looked like or what you where drawing on your school agenda.

On this forum we read to many stories about glorious veterans looking back to the good old days and the heroic battles they fought. At least that the impression I get when reading these tales.

Certainly in Germany only a very small percentage of "die hards" looks back in such a way. Most common soldiers who gave the best years of there lifes fighting for the wrong cause are just happy when nobody reminds them of these awful years.

That was the type soldier that I got the little grouping from with the help of my dear friend Skip.

Based upon the two times Skip talked to him it became very clear that he didn't want to be reminded of that period although he fought from day one to the very last day of the war and survived the whole thing.

After 60 years Skip could still clearly see the burn mark scars on his hands and arms from his first wounds in Russia and the scar on his cheek from fragments of an exploding fighter airplain bomb he suffered in 1944. Also in 1944 he lost his wife and young son after an air raid on Berlin.

So just imagin you would have been in this guys place. What would your most vivid memories be after 60 years, the color of your tank and the why of the cut out grass on your PAB or the pain you suffered as a consequence of your wounds and the loss of your wife and child?

KR
Philippe

[trotlin13]

Bruce:

Suffice it to say, but you have a innate talent in stating the obvious.

......just to clear things up here let me say this: The only official, possible precursor to the #'ed PAB would only be the regular PAB.

Why, for goodness sake, would there be some kind of interim unofficial badge?

Thank-you, for clearing that up.

Websters defines precursor as "one that precedes and indicates the approach of another." Philippe's theory never suggested that the "cut-out" was an official precursor to the numbered PAB. He merely opined, that at the onset of the Russian campaign, there already existed several battle-hardened veterans who wanted to distinguish themselves from the countless replacements that were filling the ranks for the oncoming offensive, and who would undoubtedly, if lucky, be receiving the PAB before winter. Since the numbered PAB did not yet exist, it seems very probable, that the men wearing the cut-out simply improvised a distinction which wasnt "officially" recognized until some years later. Thus, the cut-out "indicate[d] the approach of another " - the numbered PAB. Unfortunately, i have never seen an example in person. But, I have seen photos of Philippe's and Mike Pinkus' cut-outs. They all appear to be buntmedal and/or displaying indicia of early war manufacture. Surely, these elite panzers had more pressing things to consider then personal vanity. And, its a fact, based on the photographic evidence, that more than 1 panzer brigade modified their PABs. I would advance that this "theory" has become more of a presumption. Philippe and I have corresponded on this issue and have independently examined what little evidence there is; until something new emerges Philippe's presumption sounds pretty good to me.

[Bruce Simcox]

gentlemen......

......as for the #'ed IAB.....I really wouldn't care to make a assumption at this point. To do so I will need to examine those existing, surviving records of the Third Reich to determine if, perhaps, the CCC is or isn't the next step up from the plain unnumbered IAB. Personally, I wouldn't count it out. That's just me though.

I will have to do the same in determining a timeline for the appearance of the #'ed Luftwaffe awards. Do they predate the appearance of #'ed panzer badges? Would their appearance at an earlier, or maybe a later date, have any bearing on the subject at hand?

When it comes to human memory......each of us is very different on what of our past we can accurately recall. I do remember many things about my first girlfriend(including her name)......and that's going back over 45 years. I can tell you what color was my Dad's Mercury that we vacationed in during the summer of 1957 and the interior colors too. And I haven't seen a photo of that car(just one of the many different models and makes of automobiles that my Dad owned) in over 35 years.

@Dylan

"Websters defines precursor as "one that precedes and indicates(my highlight) the approach of another."

Then perhaps you're inferring(by using Webster's definition above) that this independently performed alteration of these panzer badges indicates that these guys knew the war was going to last longer than expected? So that they were just, in a sense, letting every one else know, in a roundabout way, that the #'ed PAB's were on the way?

They all appear to be buntmedal and/or displaying indicia of early war manufacture. Surely, these elite panzers had more pressing things to consider then personal vanity. And, its a fact, based on the photographic evidence, that more than 1 panzer brigade modified their PAB's

I would love to be able to determine the metallic composition of a badge by looking at a photo. Perhaps you could humor me by posting one such identifiable image so that I could learn?
I think that it is more than a suggestion that it is personal vanity that is involved creating and issuing awards. What would be the point in medals and badges otherwise?
I would also love to see just one period photo of a panzer brigade, or even a single crew, together wearing the cut-outs. You know a group photo..........Anyone?

In closing I would like to thank Greg for the following:

This is not to detract at all from Philippe's theory; I think it's "Kool," I just think we need to dig up more evidence. Happily, with enough of us looking, I'm sure we'll find something else out.

-------------------------

Bruce

[WWIIBuff]

Cut-out PAB in wear

Hi Dylan,

I have a couple shots of the same soldier. One similar to yours (although yours is nicer, showing the WB and eagle complete), and one later in the war showing his LAH siphers. This photo also appears on page #58 of Tuckers new badge book. Are you sure that is a "cut-out"?

John

[WWIIBuff]

Cut-out

Close-up...

[WWIIBuff]

Cut-out

Later in the war...

[Michael Kuligowski]

Close-up...

doesn't looks like cut out on this closeup...

[Philippe DB]

Hi John,

I agree with Mike non of these PAB's have the cut-out which ofcourse would mean that the first pic posted by Dylan also doesn't have the cut-out

KR
Philippe

[trotlin13]

John:

Thanks for the pics. Do you have a close-up on the PAB of the late war portrait? Thanks,

[WWIIBuff]

Cut-out

Hi Dylan,

I hope I didn't rain on your parade.

I don't have a close-up of the PAB on the later shot but I'll try to make one tonight when I get home and post it for you.

Philippe - I should have my Panzer commander photo album with the other pic of the cut-out PAB in a few weeks. I'll post it then.

John

[trotlin13]

Alas, unfortunately, I agree. Still looking for an SS panzer with cut-out though.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Dylan,

Philippe - I should have my Panzer commander photo album with the other pic of the cut-out PAB in a few weeks. I'll post it then.

John

Thanks John, looking forward to see it

[WWIIBuff]

Pab

Hi Dylan,

Here is a close-up of the PAB on the later picture per your request.

John