IABs from SOS ...

[Mike H]

I saw these at SOS and purchased them after getting back from the Show.

I sure would appreciate your help in ID'ing them. Sorry, but hard to get the color right.

Reverses later.

Mike

[Mike H]

Reverse ...

.

[Hans Kondor]

All looks beautiful, I don't know about the first one, maybe S&L?
The other two are Deumer and Egghead.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Mike,

The first one is indeed an S&L IAB, but in my opinion it is a post-war produced example based on the reverse hardware.

The other two are nice wartime originals and I agree with Hans' assessment of Deumer and egghead.

Tom

[Mike H]

More photos ...

Tom,

Some more images of the reverse hardware ....

Mike

[Mike H]

,,,

,,,

[Mike H]

,,...

.,.,.

[Graeme]

Hi Mike

I agree that the "S&L" is likely not 39-45 era. These have also shown up with a distinguishing semicircular line across the eagle, and I believe may have been discussed in a couple threads before. Winkler had a bronze like yours last week.

The other two look very nice and original

best regards
Graeme

[Blued]

That is a very nice Deumer

[Andreas Klein]

Hi,

is the so called S&L IAB really a postwar production or are we to fast ... ? It's easier to find a B-Type KC as this sort of IAB.

They are quite rare compared to the so called postwar knight crosses. Anyway the shown piece hasn't the massive circle flaws like the ones which where discussed to postwar lately.

The setup doesn't have the so called 57er dimble and what makes this setup to a 100% postwar one? The catch is a standard one as it can be found on many wartime pieces and the hinge is a normal block hinge.

[Nordmark]

Hi,

is the so called S&L IAB really a postwar production or are we to fast ... ? It's easier to find a B-Type KC as this sort of IAB.

They are quite rare compared to the so called postwar knight crosses. Anyway the shown piece hasn't the massive circle flaws like the ones which where discussed to postwar lately.

The setup doesn't have the so called 57er dimble and what makes this setup to a 100% postwar one? The catch is a standard one as it can be found on many wartime pieces and the hinge is a normal block hinge.

I agree with Andreas. I handled one of these a while back, and I have to admit, they look very convincing. The base material is zinc, and everything of these pieces looks right if you hold them in your hands. Patina, bubbling, discoloring on the soldering area etc.. I hardly believe that they were made "10 years ago". The only fact we do know is, we simply don´t know, when they were made.



Daniel

[Thomas Durante]

The setup doesn't have the so called 57er dimble and what makes this setup to a 100% postwar one? The catch is a standard one as it can be found on many wartime pieces and the hinge is a normal block hinge.

Hi guys,

Andreas, I would disagree here and say the block hinge is more similar to what S&L used postwar in the 1957 period. And the catch is also more in line with what S&L used postwar (i.e., not catchplate). Also notice the finish, it is identical to the frosted finish S&L used on their early 1957 IABs and other badges. I do not happen to see the "1957 scrape" on the pin, so I specifically left that out of the discussion, but the pin could very easily just be a leftover wartime pin. What is more troubling is the particular block hinge and catch without catchplate and unique finish that tells me it was made postwar.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Tom,

thanks for the input. I think it's in the meantime an accepted fact that S&L had no own production die for the IAB because they bought it from the firm Wissmann in Pforzheim. Wissmann was a die supplier during the whole war so i think it's more than possible than more as the firm of S&L got this IAB design and used it - remember beside on L/50 marked example there has never been a maker marked one of this.

So the 1st question is:

How can we be sure that this IAB left the firm of S&L so that we can compare it with technics used in the firm of S&L?

2nd - the catch:

What makes this catch a classic 57 one? It's a simple piece of bended metal. You will find this similiar catch on the FZS IAB and several wound and para badges aswell.

Ok there the catch was soldered on a base plate first could be an argument but B.H. Mayer and Meybauer used exactly this sort of catch too and they soldered it directly on the badge.

The discussed IAB has tombak as base material and it's not a secret that you can solder directly on such a badge - so what we see here is logical and was used often during wartime production.

3 - the finish:

I can't see a special 57 finish here. If the same finish would be on a FZS or any other common IAB we would applaude and call it "mint".

4 - the needle:

You said it by your own words ... it doesn't have the 57 scrape on it.

5 - block hinge

So at last we have a block hinge ... used on wartime and postwar badges aswell.

Based on the setup i can't see a real evidence that this badge was produced by S&L and i can't see when it was produced.

The badge has only the big problem that it has a bad repution because the right people allready jumped on the postwar train.

[Graeme]

Hi Andreas

You make many logical and interesting points.

I think these have had bad press due to the association with the circular flaw.

I also agree that assumptions are often made on forums and they sometimes become fact, depending on who made those assumptions.

It would be nice to open a thread to discuss these further, and to get as many examples together as possible. A separate thread would be easier to find and It won't hog Mikes thread.

cheers
Graeme

[Mike H]

Thanks ...

Thank you, gentlemen, for the help and the learning experience.

This IAB is being returned to the seller today. While I appreciate the discussion, as is often said, "Not for my collection ..."

Interesting to note that I have had more than one PM or e-mail offering to buy it.

Graeme is right. A separate thread on these would be very useful. Please feel free to use my images.

Regards,

Mike